The MLP Arena
Pony Talk => MLP Nirvana => Topic started by: applejackbunny on January 06, 2018, 08:34:50 AM
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I have a NC Sundance and NC Mummy Bright Bouquet. I have a box for Nirvanas and a box for European/UK exclusives. Where should I put these two girls? Also, is yellow Moondancer (HK version) a Nirvana or is she a Euro exclusive? :huh: Sorry for my ignorance and thanks in advance to any kind souls who can set me straight :biggrin:
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As a rule of thumb anything not marked Hong Kong, Thailand or China :)
So NC Sundance and NC Mummy are nirvana where as yellow Hong Kong Moondancer is a regional exclusive :)
Love pkw xxx
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Oh! That makes things much easier - thank you :) I shall pop them into their correct boxes now!
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There is some more detail in this thread;
http://mlparena.com/index.php/topic,283451.0.html
There are a few grey areas!
Love pkw xxx
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Great, thank you! That's definitely helped :)
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Great, thank you! That's definitely helped :)
I'm glad :bigups: it can be tricky trying to pin a pony down.
love pkw xxx
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I would personally dispute Sundance NC and the family ponies NC as being Nirvana. I don't think they're any different than the Thai fancy pants babies. They're a manufacturing variation in a particular locale, but they're not like other Nirvana ponies who are made under licence. In Sundance's case, she's not only normal release in the UK, I am pretty sure her box doesn't even mention the fact she's not HK.
I think they are more European/UK variations. Not Nirvana.
And the Thai Mountain Boys are Nirvana, but the fancy pants babies are not. The difference is how mainstream their release is. Since the Sundance and Mummy Pony thing is a pan-European thing, I would say we can draw the same comparison.
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I believe the difference is that exclusives are ponies that were only sold in select country(s). Such as Nachtlight and Raindrop Mountain Boys, Holly Dash, Winter Snow, Ladybird.
Please correct me if I'm wrong.
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I guess Ladybird probably fits both categories, as she's made in Greece but also only sold in Greece and ther'es no global equivalent. But although I forget the company, she's made under licence from Hasbro by that company, making her probably more Nirvana. Otherwise I think that's how I think of the term as well.
The problem really comes from the fact that when the variant thing happened it was all over the place and we didn't really know what to do with these ponies since most of the other ponies, like Nachtlicht and such were also just starting to pop up. So lines got blurred.
For me a pony made under licence from Hasbro in another palce is a Nirvana.
A pony made in another place as an alternate to mainstream is a Nirvana.
A pony made in another place that is mainstream is dubious as a Nirvana for me. But I get that it's really hard to distinguish, because someone in Spain might say "but Spanish Trickles was normal here", and I can't dispute that. Or in the Netherlands, where Italy Bubbles is maybe more common than the regular one.
For me the real difference is because in the case of Sundance and the Mummy and Daddy Ponies, they even got to the UK and there's no special packaging or information involved to say they are made in Spain or anywhere other than Hong Kong or China. The packaging says HK or China, even when it isn't the case. The UK have no other Nirvana releases except the weird variant princesses etc at the end of the line. But our version of Sundance is pretty much always NC. That makes her as mainstream here as the Thai fancy pants in the US, as there is no official version made in HK in the UK, although I think Sundance's box says HK. It's at home so I can't check, but I think that's correct.
Sorry PKW ;) I'm muddying the waters. But originally what was and what wasn't a variant was pretty muddy anyway. I just think that if those ponies are Nirvana, so are the Thai fancy pants, as the real rule of thumb is not being made in China or Hong Kong.
Edit: Dug out the images of my Sundance box and it says Made in China. And because of that, we genuinely have no way of proving that isn't the case, although there is no China print on her hooves.
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No need to be sorry Taffeta :lol: it is a grey area and your points all make sense :bigups: Nirvana's isn't a one size fits all and the more we try and narrow things down the harder it becomes.
I have always seen Sundance as a bit of both Nirvana and regional release. The family ponies are more confusing for me since they got HK, China and NC marks as well as everything in between. So I personally consider the NC versions to be *more* Nirvana. I admit I don't have as much knowledge on standard releases and issues as a regular collector since I almost exclusively deal with nirvana ponies.
The Thai boys threw a spanner in the works didn't they? I'd be more inclined to think they were *less* Nirvana and *more* regional exclusive, but we know nothing of them :huh: Also why are the Thai UK/Euro Mountain Boys and yet US Thai Fancy Pants??? (because it is Hasbro I guess?)
As for what it says on the box, it can't always be trusted, those Mexican Baby Speaponies say "made in Mexico" on the box and they are imports, which brings me to this Chimera......
https://www.instagram.com/p/BdD4eIsgENv/?taken-by=himmie.mlp
LOOK AT THE BABY! :lol: I've been meaning to ask Himmie what it says regarding where it was "made".
Love pkw xxx
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It really shouldn;t surprise me that that box set exists, to be honest...after all, there are numerous weird packaging things and releases that happened. The trouble with NC ponies is that they can be hidden away inside normal releases of lots of sets. Things like Windy Wings, and Starlight Babies, and Pocket Friends/Precious Pockets. There are also the Baby Cuddles buggy sets which say on the box (in the UK) that the baby is made in Spain but no examples have ever been found to corroborate this - all have come marked Hong Kong.
I have some residual doubts, I have to admit, about whether we should automatically assume NC is Spanish and that all NC ponies were made in Spain. I think we know a lot that are, and then there are others which ask questions, like Sundance. Why not say she's made in Spain if she's made in Spain? Why say she's made in China when all the ones sold in the US are made in Hong Kong? Why do that in a time when ponies are hardly ever made in China anyway (flutters but nothing else I think)? I am sure there's a lot more going on.
But for me Sundance was produced for the mainstream European and UK market without exception. She's not a Nirvana pony in the sense of the other Spanish or NC ponies we talk about, like the TAFs or the Rainbow Ponies or stuff like that.
I work much more with regional release stuff in the mainstream rather than the variants these days, so I'm coming at it from a different angle. I think there's a lot more to be done in that area which people skip over because Nirvana is more shiny and exciting but that's also why we create grey areas. Not that I can offer you any explanation for the Thai question except the one you offered ;). I think the Thai fancy pants babies were probably an experimentation but one Hasbro chose not to go with. But it's problematic to me that we have four fancy pants babies in existence made in China, which is mainstream production, and yet they are seen as the variants, not the Thai babies, because they're not American. And I feel like Sundance gets the same treatment, because of the way in which stuff in Europe is generally seen as more variant-y than stuff in America. I really think these categories are more nuanced and varied than that. If the NC Sundance had come out universally in the US, we wouldn't see her that way. So for me it makes no sense to see her as Nirvana at all.
You know, G4 pony stuff can be made in China but also Vietnam, Indonesia, etc. We don't see those as Nirvana because they're mainstream and global and what's available. I realise we're not talking about G4, but it's an interesting observation nonetheless.
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Yes, I remember the box that said made in Spain, but came with HK baby Cuddles.
Based on what some Spanish collectors have said, the NC ponies where made for export.
I’ve felt iffy about some NC ponies for a while, for reasons I can’t always put my finger on.
Some, such as the Family ponies have the true Spanish look too them, where as others look just like a regular pony only with the stamp removed. No Spanish eyes and no other features that would indicate they were Spanish made other than the lack of a hoof mark.
This has always perplexed me.
Another thing worth noting, IF I remember rightly, is the Baby Seaponies never got a country stamp and are therefore for NC :huh:
Don’t forget the first set Princess are made in China ;) :flirty: which brings me to Princess Sundance, we did discuss her at PonyCon and now *perhaps* is the time to perhaps suggest that NC Sundance wasn’t made in Spain, but rather China and the run for the Euro market got an NC mark.
There was a time when Hasbro switched around a lot. It could be Hasbro were trying China out before switching from Hong Kong and so the NC stamp was born along with some Thai ponies.
I’ve not looked at the time line, but 1987 appears to be the switch over year from Hong Kong to China.
There are some Indian G4’s as well! I do remember that been brought up and the question being asked as to why they aren’t considered Nirvana and it’s due to the nirvana term only being applied to G1 over anything else.
I understand what I’m saying could be viewed as controversial.
Love pkw xxx
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I don't think that's controversial, but you won't be surprised to hear that. I think the current status quo more controversial.
I agree on Sundance. I don't think I have ever thought of her as Spanish. We do have Spain on playset boxes here, and even the UK in one case (green waterfall), but aside that Baby Buggy anomaly, it's not usually the pony. I don't really understand why the UK box for Sundance would say China if the pony was made in Spain. There's no reason to do that that makes sense.
I know there are NC ponies on French card for the early ponies. Are there NC ponies on Spanish card for the same time frame (Rainbow Ponies and the like?) I ask because there has to be some reason we connected NC to Spain, and that's the most obvious - NC ponies on cards marked made in Spain.
A lot of Nirvana ponies are technically NC though. Greek ponies, for one. And your point about the baby sea ponies I think holds water too.
Problem is people don't pay enough attention to the mainstream variations, and we don't know enough about a lot of places and their pony releases, which is where these problems come from. :/
The changeover...it's really muddy. Mostly the UK switches over by about 1989, but there are still odd ponies, like there are Starlight Babies, made in HK. The US is even more patchy. It's like they have multiple factories producing ponies in different locations for different places. I rather wonder if some of the NC ponies in that mix come from one or other of those families.
Princess Sundance is a whole other question mark. I have an open mind about her but no real theories relating to her origins.
Did anyone ever do comparisons between any of these ponies and Thai ponies? Just a thought.
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:lol: I didn't think my thought would shock you, but I am sure others might see it as controversial since it is such a long held belief.
I think we are thinking in parallel since I am thinking of the features and you are thinking of the timelines and releases, that is what you are so good at :bigups:
The ponies I am iffy about being truly Spain made are: Sundance, Sundea Best ponies, Precious Pocket Ponies, Starlight Babies and the wingers. The reason why I am iffy about them is that, IMHO, they lack the Spanish features, such as the eyes, body texture, hair colour and texture. The only thing that "makes" them Spanish is the lack of a country stamp.
I know there are NC ponies on French card for the early ponies. Are there NC ponies on Spanish card for the same time frame (Rainbow Ponies and the like?) I ask because there has to be some reason we connected NC to Spain, and that's the most obvious - NC ponies on cards marked made in Spain.
I don't think I have seen those? (NC ponies on French cards) At least they are not in the gallery, so I may have seen them else where, but since my brain can only hold so much information I just don't recall seeing them :blush:
All the Rainbows in the gallery are on Spain cards and at the bottom it says "made in Valencia Spain" as there are images of the backcards too.
http://mlparena.com/archive/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=228069&g2_page=1
Also looking in the gallery both the set with Hopscotch and the TAF set are all on Spanish language cards. Both sets have NC and Spain marked ponies.
The changeover...it's really muddy. Mostly the UK switches over by about 1989, but there are still odd ponies, like there are Starlight Babies, made in HK. The US is even more patchy. It's like they have multiple factories producing ponies in different locations for different places. I rather wonder if some of the NC ponies in that mix come from one or other of those families.
This! I was thinking about those little babies and the number of variations of variations you can get. I recall your little collection of Baby Mischiefs!
Princess Sundance is a whole other question mark. I have an open mind about her but no real theories relating to her origins.
I mentioned Princess Sundance, because you, LadyG and myself all thought it daft for them to ship a bundle of Sundance "remains" from Spain to China, to put Princess Pearl's heads on, to ship them back to the UK for sale as "rubble". This thought has been ruminating in my brain since PonyCon and has made me reconsider the true origins of NC Sundance.
Love pkw xxx
PS the poor OP must think what a tin of worms she has opened!
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I am buried between doing preparation for my teaching and writing my thesis draft at the moment so it won't happen any time soon, but I do have a bunch of images somewhere on file sent me by someone in Europe of MOC ponies. I need to go over them again but I have this feeling there's at least one NC rainbow pony in there on a French card.
Edit - I lie, I checked it on my email. Pinwheel and Trickles on French card bought in France, no country, card says made in Spain. And the card is the one with UK style art that shows flutterbye, not the one with Starflower. (The one I still need an example of in my card collection, grrr). I have the images (front, back, hooves) for these but I can't give them to you for the gallery because they're not my ponies. I also have an image of a Pinwheel on the same card my Molinillo is on but in French - but she looks very zonked and I can't atm find hoof images for her to confirm if she has Spain on her feet or not. I can email those to you if you want to see them, but I can't really put them up :/
If the NC ones are also on Spanish card though it means they weren't just for export, but for domestic and export. And export seems to be French speaking countries but I dunno...can't remember seeing german carded NC ponies/Spanish ponies. So that's pretty limited export *ponders*. And right now I only have evidence for that one set, and only on the one card style.
See I don't focus so much on where they are made these days, I leave that to you guys, but I do focus on things like the packaging...
I don't unfortunately have cards for any of the NC you mention except the box for Sundance but I would agree. I actually don't think the zombie parents always look the same as the other NC ponies, I think that's a bit of an insult to Spanish ponies, who are generally less stoned and who actually seem to have properly rooted hair. But I can't be totally sure. Timeline-wise it also makes not much sense if they're Spanish. Why stop production and then begin it again? (Also, though, if ponies have Spain on the feet sometimes and then other times don;t, is that 2 factories in Spain and would that explain what I just wondered about?)
I have cookies for the OP :) I like discussions like this.
Ah, the baby mischiefs. And most of them are marked as being Chinese (4/6).
I am generally controversial because I dislike most of the long held beliefs about most types of ponies in one sense or other, from how we define years down to how we look at variants. But you know that ;) In comparison, you're probably fine. I don't mind the fakies being thrown my way...
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I'd love to see those MOc's please drop me an email when you have time (no doubt ponies is distracting you from your work) I know you can't donate them to the gallery, please don't worry about that. I would like to see them though :)
I vaguely remember *something* about two factories, I need to see if I can find the thread. I am sure it was a discussion on the NC vs. Spain marked Rainbows and glitter vs. metallic symbols. The idea that NC ponies were made for export was brought up, but on looking at the cards in the gallery, it clearly wasn't the case for some ponies.
Packaging is important, in the last 12-18 months I have become more interested in packaging and back cards because of the information they have :)
There are some MOC pictures in the gallery for the Sundea Best ponies :) but there is no picture of the backs of the cards.
http://mlparena.com/archive/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=228084
LadyPinwheel has several lovely Pinterest album with Spanish language backcards,
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/ladypinwheel/my-little-pony-backcards-in-spanish/
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/ladypinwheel/mlp-backcards/
https://www.pinterest.co.uk/ladypinwheel/my-little-pony-made-in-spain/
LadyPinwheel and I spent sometime untangling the piggy ponies and their two wave release (MB vs. Breker) and the three symbols variants of the second set :)
I deliberately didn't mention the Zombie family ponies when I was talking about Spanish features :lol: IMHO the Daddies seemed to be nice quality compared to the Mummies. The Mummies bodies are rougher in finish, the hair is thinner and uneven, the plugs far apart, as well as more misprints on the eyes and symbols. They also seem much more prone to wear compared to other ponies, you often see them with bad symbol and eye rubs and I don't think it was down to them being mistreated. The Daddies have always seemed better, heavier smoother bodies, neater symbols and eyes and thicker hair.
http://mlparena.com/archive/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=472174
There is always one though.......
http://mlparena.com/archive/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=472684
:lol:
Sometimes we believe what we believe because it has been considered "right" for such a long time, and it becomes hard to question it because it is considered fact. We still need to ask questions :) I know over the years I have been collecting many myths have been dispelled and ideas debunked.
Love pkw xxx
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I have sent you an email ;) hopefully it worked ok.
Yeah, I spend a lot of my time either debunking or fighting truth-resistent myths. I still see Baby Buttons etc listed on ebay as UK ponies. Sigh. Never mind. It continues.
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Thank you or the email, those backcards are beautiful :wow:
I spoke to Himmie who told me (and showed me pictures) that the AppleDelight Family Ponies are marked "made in Spain" on the box.
Love pkw xxx
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I know, isn't it such a stunning card :'( I want so muchhh...
On the family, interesting. Now I wonder if we can do the same check up on the English cards to see if they also say Spain for the NC parents. Not that I think hasbro were always right about this on packages...but it would be nice to know if there's consistency or not.
...*watches the thread veer off on a new detour*
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I think we need a new thread asking to see those Family pony back cards :bigups:
Thank you for the email ;) ^.^
Love pkw xxx
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Interesting discussion! I really like these kind of digging. ^^
Some NC ponies definately had a wider spread than just Spain. In Sweden we had NC Lemon Drop, both baby and adult, in english language boxes. Not sure though if boxes are marked as made in spain or not (mine are packed away unfortunately)
I believe we had the NC Sundance as well. I have never seen her in box irl, but I have always assumed that if the packaging says otherwise, it just means the rest of it is made in another country. Like Megan might be made in China, whereas Sundance is NC. However, it makes sence that it might be that NC(spanish) are not always span made. At least not considering the Wingers and sundae best etc..
Regarding the Sundae Best in the gallery, Have we only seen the NC ones on spanish cards? Is it confirmed that those in the gallery on spanish cards actually are NC or are they just assumed since they are on spanish cards? Is there any HK or China ones on spanish cards as well?
I'm curiaous though, Princess Sundance? I think I have missed something here.. Anyone have a pic? :)
(And Taffeta, if you would share the MOCs by mail, I would be very happy to see them. :))
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I'm glad you've posted :) Taffeta and I were discussing your MIB NC Baby Lemon and wondering where is said she was made on her box :lol:
Yes, the MOC Sundea Best ponies shown in the nirvana gallery are have an NC mark :) I don't think I've seen them on any other card? They seem really hard to find, but it may be they are hiding in plain sight.
Princess Sundance ;)
http://mlparena.com/archive/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=473005
Love pkw xxx
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I have this feeling that where there's a difference in manufacture the box states it. I might only be dealing with UK boxes here, but I'm sure I've seen 'pony made in (x), playset made in (y). Or similar. I don't have Megan and Sundance's box to hand here in London, unfortunately, so I can't hunt all over it to see if anything else is said. I can only just make out made in china on the box flap. I had been told by someone in Sweden that the Swedish release of Megan and Sundance featured the same outfit as the US (in that thread, actually, that PKW linked in the other discussion on nirvana backcards, there's a promotional image and it does show Megan in that dress). I don't know about the rest of Europe and the manufacture of Sundance in general. It makes sense that she'd be in countries where other NC ponies were on sale, but the outfit situation confuses me. I also have a couple of UK acquired Sundances and they're different from each other.
http://www.etherella.com/scrapbook2/meganandsundance2.htm
images etc.
Unfortunately the only surviving box piece I know of from the 1987 UK release is goddessofpeep's and it doesn't have the flaps, only the back I think. So we may not be able to tell where that one is made. I'll check my files but I suspect it won't be there. It's never come up MIP, as far as I know.
Sigh. What I want to do now is go home, take apart my pony collection and check information. What I actually have to do is go over my notes for tomorrow's class then prepare to see my professor about my work. Being grown up is so much hassle sometimes...
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Lol, I'm glad I started this discussion! Who knew it was so complicated? :lol:
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Bringing up an old topic here, but I found a picture I have been searching for a while, that I new I had seen somewhere. It puzzled me a bit, as I have never heard of anything pony related to West Germany.
I guess it is only the playset and that no ponies where actuall produced in W-Germany (as my Home Sweet Home state as made in USA, and I dont think any ponies where produced there either? )
It feels far fetched though, that come NC ponies should have ben produced here, not for the spanish market who had their own production. And those pony releases where much later then the stable.
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One of the Nursery releases is also made in W. Germany. I think Kitchen and some Kiss Curl parlours are made in spain and the green base waterfall says on the box made in the UK.
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Aw, and I though that I had found something new here :P
Anyone know why the playsets where made at other places then the ponies?
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Interesting discussion! I really like these kind of digging. ^^
Some NC ponies definately had a wider spread than just Spain. In Sweden we had NC Lemon Drop, both baby and adult, in english language boxes. Not sure though if boxes are marked as made in spain or not (mine are packed away unfortunately)
I believe we had the NC Sundance as well. I have never seen her in box irl, but I have always assumed that if the packaging says otherwise, it just means the rest of it is made in another country. Like Megan might be made in China, whereas Sundance is NC. However, it makes sence that it might be that NC(spanish) are not always span made. At least not considering the Wingers and sundae best etc..
Regarding the Sundae Best in the gallery, Have we only seen the NC ones on spanish cards? Is it confirmed that those in the gallery on spanish cards actually are NC or are they just assumed since they are on spanish cards? Is there any HK or China ones on spanish cards as well?
I'm curiaous though, Princess Sundance? I think I have missed something here.. Anyone have a pic? :)
(And Taffeta, if you would share the MOCs by mail, I would be very happy to see them. :))
I am glad you posted as I wanted to ask about your NC Baby Lemondrop! So the one in the gallery is Swedish release then? It is your pony and picture ;)
http://mlparena.com/archive/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=384951
I NEVER assume anything when it comes to then nirvana gallery ;) So all the Sundae Best ponies, and any other MOC or MIB shown in the nirvana gallery are actually NC, they wouldn't be in the gallery otherwise :)
I have always tried, where possible, with the all Spanish and NC ponies, to add if the pony is NC marked or Spain marked :) So ponies are listed as Spain if the have a Spain stamp or NC if they have no country stamped. If i have no info on the ponies hoof mark, it is just listed with it's name :bigups: (I will need to do some upgrades at some point to fill in a few gaps)
Love pkw xxx
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I am glad you posted as I wanted to ask about your NC Baby Lemondrop! So the one in the gallery is Swedish release then? It is your pony and picture ;)
http://mlparena.com/archive/gallery2/main.php?g2_view=core.ShowItem&g2_itemId=384951
I NEVER assume anything when it comes to then nirvana gallery ;) So all the Sundae Best ponies, and any other MOC or MIB shown in the nirvana gallery are actually NC, they wouldn't be in the gallery otherwise :)
I have always tried, where possible, with the all Spanish and NC ponies, to add if the pony is NC marked or Spain marked :) So ponies are listed as Spain if the have a Spain stamp or NC if they have no country stamped. If i have no info on the ponies hoof mark, it is just listed with it's name :bigups: (I will need to do some upgrades at some point to fill in a few gaps)
Love pkw xxx
Yes NC baby Lemon Drop was sold like that in Sweden :) I had her as a child (with the same accessories), and the NC version and pink stroller are definately more common second hand then the other one. I selldom see the purple stroller for sale in Sweden, and then it is mostly sold from collectors who may have gotten them from elsewhere. I dont think the HK version was sold here at all.
The one in the gallery is bought directly from a toystore in Sweden that sold out left over stock. :)
Ok, good to know ^^ Had to ask to be sure :P Its good that you are very specific in the texts so it is easy to tell them apart. :)
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Thank you :D I have updated the information in the gallery :hug: :bigups:
Love pkw xxx
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I Checked the gallery for your update, and unfortunately it might be a misunderstanding. :) I dont think the purple stroller where sold here in Sweden at all. At least not togheter with the spanish version. She always shows up with the pink stroller :)
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I Checked the gallery for your update, and unfortunately it might be a misunderstanding. :) I dont think the purple stroller where sold here in Sweden at all. At least not togheter with the spanish version. She always shows up with the pink stroller :)
Thank you so much for double checking for me :hug: I rely so much on you guys for information and help. I couldn't do it without you.
Love pkw xxx
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No worries at all! I'm just glad I can help! :) Pony mysteries is fun to solve :D
Will let you know if there is any more information when I dig her out from storage later ^^
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Thank you so very much :hug:
I am now trying to include information with the pictures in the gallery, since there is nowhere on line with this information. I struggle to remember all the facts, plus I want this information to be somewhere easy for people to see/find :)
Love pkw xxx