The MLP Arena
Pony Talk => Pony Corral => Topic started by: FarDreamer on July 04, 2016, 11:07:51 AM
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I'm doing some sun fading this weekend which got me thinking about this. I still see a lot of questions and concerns about peroxide soaks and the erroneous belief that nothing can be done for pony cancer. I thought I'd post what I've observed over the years, in case anyone finds it useful.
Hydrogen Peroxide Soaks
Works well when the pony's pores need to be cleaned out
Often safe on ponies who burn during regular sun fading
Use for:
- discoloring from scents (works great on discolored perfume puffs, but once their hair fades it's difficult to dye)
- discoloring from smoke
- pony cancer
- large blotchy stains
- mildew stains
- sometimes helps with head/body discoloring
- usually safe for glitter symbols
- can be used for overall whitening
Downsides
- dries out hair and the hair won't hold a curl as easily after exposure
- may remove pearlized paint (TE eyes, pearly bodies, etc.)
- reports that it hardens the pony's body, but I've never had this happen, my thoughts is that maybe it cleans out the platisizer, which would have leached out on its own anyway
- will damage mechanical parts
- destroys magic message pony symbols
- makes chartreuse hair bleed color onto anything nearby
- you can't cover the pony, so if you decide to expose to sun as well, fading can happen, I've only had problems with pink and red hair fading, not other colors
Does the pony need to be exposed to the sun while soaking? It seems to me that it works faster when used together, but I'm currently experimenting with this to see if it makes any difference. In theory, if the peroxide works by cleaning out the dirt that has caused the stains, then the sun wouldn't be needed.
Sun Fading
Works well for staining that has soaked into the pony's vinyl
- pen and ink stains, even sharpie
- highlighter stains, saddle sores, those bright pink marks ponies are so prone to getting
- can be used for overall whitening
Downsides
- fading of hair, eyes, and symbols can happen if not covered, red and pink hair fade especially quickly when exposed to the sun
- if you cover the pony in aluminum foil, this can stain the body yellow
The main reason I wanted to post this, is that I have absolutely cured pony cancer with peroxide soaks and I want people to know that it can be done. I think restoration is all about doing what makes you enjoy your collection more. For me, I would rather have slightly dry hair than brown blotches on my pony's face. Others may prefer something different.
Any restoration technique can cause damage, so whatever you try do it carefully. I hope this is helpful.
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I've done some of each but likes reading this, I'm curious did you do anything different to help get rid of the cancer spots with peroxide.
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I'm curious too. I did the hydrogen peroxide soak with baby Moondancer who had big discoloration splotches and she came out totally nice. But years later the same areas darkened again to brown. I guess I could do it again?
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I just leave them soaking in a clear jar filled with peroxide, usually in the sun. I've got some soaking out of the sun right now to see if it works just as well.
I'd like to change the section of my website that talks about pony cancer being incurable, if others have had good results with this. Right now, I only know of myself and one other person who use it consistently specifically for cancer.
As far as the Baby MoonDancer. I suppose it depends on what's causing the stain. If it's a discoloration of the vinyl, versus an actual stain, then I suppose it would come back with time. There's so many reasons for 30 year old toys to discolor, there could be lots of explanations.
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I have had success as well. I stick to using it on cheap common ponies that I hid in a box due to how terrible they looked- but have a use in my collection. Why pay shipping on a upgrade CF blossom when I can fix my nasty one? That way if something freaky happens to them in a few years- I'm not overly heartbroken.
My only concern about stuff being so promoted is the people who now view it as basic cleaning, thus nothing to keep track of or disclose during sale. This is a RESTORATION so a pony is no longer original, and will never be mint even if it looks that way. the pony should somehow have an identifier as a reminder for what was done to it- to preserve the value of ones collection. (I use some white thread at the base of the tail to mark it as treated by H202). I mostly stopped buying ponies from collectors/pony resellers years ago due to getting bit with undisclosed restores sold as Mint or NM.
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Do you need to take out the Pony hair before putting her in a peroxide bath?
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Do you need to take out the Pony hair before putting her in a peroxide bath?
That's up to you. I usually take out their tails, but re-hairing their mane is too much of a pain for me to want to do it. So much so that I'd rather re-pink hair as needed then having to do a re-hair. I struggle with how short original manes are when trying to use it for re-hairing. I'd rather just give them a heavy conditioning after.
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Hydrogen peroxide and sunlight doesn't seem to be helping fade the glue stains on my deflocked SS Paradise :( Been out for 2 weeks and no difference. How long does it usually take to fade say pen/marker marks in hydrogen peroxide in the sun?
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Hydrogen peroxide and sunlight doesn't seem to be helping fade the glue stains on my deflocked SS Paradise :( Been out for 2 weeks and no difference. How long does it usually take to fade say pen/marker marks in hydrogen peroxide in the sun?
I don't know about glue stains, but I think regular sun fading works better for pen and marker stains. The less direct the sun is in your location, the longer it takes. Some people report it taking months in cloudy areas. The sun is very intense where I'm at and I can do it in a day or two, but many places are not that lucky. Hydrogen peroxide breaks down into water and oxygen quickly when exposed to light, so if you're in a cloudy area and need to use it for an extended time, you may need to dump it out and replace it periodically. I don't think we know enough about this method yet to know if prolonged exposure puts the pony at a higher risk for bad side effects. If everyone keeps posting your results, I really want to learn more about what other folks are observing.
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I've used a combo of Hydrogen Peroxide and Sun for a Baby Moondancer with Cancer or something of the sort..
It worked but then the brown blotched came back :( Not as bad but yeah.. Note it maybe took a year for the blotches to fully show back.. I didn't keep an eye on how long it took
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Hydrogen peroxide and sunlight doesn't seem to be helping fade the glue stains on my deflocked SS Paradise :( Been out for 2 weeks and no difference. How long does it usually take to fade say pen/marker marks in hydrogen peroxide in the sun?
I don't know about glue stains, but I think regular sun fading works better for pen and marker stains. The less direct the sun is in your location, the longer it takes. Some people report it taking months in cloudy areas. The sun is very intense where I'm at and I can do it in a day or two, but many places are not that lucky. Hydrogen peroxide breaks down into water and oxygen quickly when exposed to light, so if you're in a cloudy area and need to use it for an extended time, you may need to dump it out and replace it periodically. I don't think we know enough about this method yet to know if prolonged exposure puts the pony at a higher risk for bad side effects. If everyone keeps posting your results, I really want to learn more about what other folks are observing.
Yeah, I actually tried getting the glue stains out by just sunfading her all last summer and no difference so thought I'd try the peroxide soak. Might end up baiting her if I can't get the stains out :(
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Hydrogen peroxide and sunlight doesn't seem to be helping fade the glue stains on my deflocked SS Paradise :( Been out for 2 weeks and no difference. How long does it usually take to fade say pen/marker marks in hydrogen peroxide in the sun?
I don't know about glue stains, but I think regular sun fading works better for pen and marker stains. The less direct the sun is in your location, the longer it takes. Some people report it taking months in cloudy areas. The sun is very intense where I'm at and I can do it in a day or two, but many places are not that lucky. Hydrogen peroxide breaks down into water and oxygen quickly when exposed to light, so if you're in a cloudy area and need to use it for an extended time, you may need to dump it out and replace it periodically. I don't think we know enough about this method yet to know if prolonged exposure puts the pony at a higher risk for bad side effects. If everyone keeps posting your results, I really want to learn more about what other folks are observing.
Yeah, I actually tried getting the glue stains out by just sunfading her all last summer and no difference so thought I'd try the peroxide soak. Might end up baiting her if I can't get the stains out :(
What about painting over the glue stains?
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Hey you are stealing my thunder, haha. I just completed an exhaustive study of pretty advanced pony cancer on one Fire Chief and have achieved almost complete remission using methods including peroxide sunfade (ok the other method is boiling a long time). I took complete pictures and will be posting them with a log of what I did, for how long, etc. I had what looked like 100% "cure" but when I sanded off the resultant raised "scars" I was left with a little touch of color that I mostly, but not completely got rid of with more peroxide sunfading.
All that will be posted in my pony cancer thread which currently only discusses a much less advanced case that resolved completely but, lacks in progress pictures...
What is relevant for your thread here is that I tried for over a week soaking in peroxide in the dark and got zero result in affecting the leftover spots exposed by sanding off the "scars" left behind from boiling...but when moved into the sun, those spots faded almost completely after a week. I considered re-boiling to attempt to finish off the spots, which I suspect might work, but I feel my Chief has had just about enough.
Also the yellow hair on Chief was affected by peroxide soak, in the sun with foil over it...faded considerably. The blue part was turned purple in the little bit at the ends that the foil wouldn't stay covering.
One question I cannot answer : Is there any good mask that works for covering the symbol paint in the peroxide? Everything I could think of would be affected by the peroxide and just contaminate the bath. Also I was told that glitter symbols are damaged by peroxide but you state above they are not, are you sure?
Thanks! Nice working on this problem in parallel with you.
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Cool! Do you mind if I add your info to my website once you get it posted? My answers are below.
Is there any good mask that works for covering the symbol paint in the peroxide? - Masking tape? I haven't had trouble with symbols or hair fading (except for pink and red), but I've never left mine in the sun form more than a couple of days.
Also I was told that glitter symbols are damaged by peroxide but you state above they are not, are you sure? - I don't think it never damages them, but very often they come out just fine. It probably depends on how good of condition the 30 year old glue holding the glitter on is in. I think heat is worse for them than the peroxide itself.
Thanks! Nice working on this problem in parallel with you.
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****Edited to add: I may discuss this too casually so I want to be VERY CLEAR: the methods I describe here are for ponies that are completely lost due to pony cancer!! Very drastic. Will almost certainly have unforeseen long term consequences!! I get lost in enthusiasm for saving ponies and forget to emphasize this so please consider it emphasized!!
Sure especially if you credit me, and I'd like to add a link back to your work from my pony cancer thread too. My 'case study' is closer to mad scientist than scientific so is best combined with the work of others to have meaning anyway.
I wanted to take a scientific approach, with specimens cut from the same pony (even the same spot) under several different strictly controlled sets of conditions and observe carefully for as long as it took to collect hard data but, when I saw a centerpoint spot fade off of my Bright Eyes during boiling I couldn't resist jumping in with both feet and started boiling things until spots disappeared....long boiling led to the need to re-whiten so I added peroxide sunfade and noticed additional fading to the cancer spots...damage to the colors led me to try dark soaking which didn't work for me, but i only tried dark for a week and observing no results switched back to light.
I began with dissection and found that the spots (which I am starting to call colonies because I am increasingly convinced they are bacterial colonies from their growth patterns and what happens to them when they are boiled) seem to originate in the center of the material, not the surface, and I wonder why they progress more in the center of the material even once they have met the surface...anaerobic maybe? Considering this, I wonder why would soaking in peroxide be effective without boiling, if that is the case? When you see them disappear from peroxide soaks alone, how long have you observed them not to return so far?
When I boil them long enough to fade their color, the pony material changes shape directly over the colony...raises a little bit. I call that "scarring" and consider it evidence supporting a biological source as opposed to chemical source which shouldn't respond such to boiling, at least in my limited understanding of petrochemicals. When I sand off the raised area, the outer ring that was originally light brown remains clear (pony-colored) and in the most advanced colonies, the center point which was dark reveals a light brown spot that did not clear after additional peroxide sunfade, but it's not certain whether that light brown spot will respond to more boiling....less advanced colonies cleared completely and sanding did not reveal any more brown and in one example, did not even leave any dark area when observed with a light behind the material.
Anyway I look forward to collaborating with you more! Thanks!
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Hydrogen peroxide and sunlight doesn't seem to be helping fade the glue stains on my deflocked SS Paradise :( Been out for 2 weeks and no difference. How long does it usually take to fade say pen/marker marks in hydrogen peroxide in the sun?
I don't know about glue stains, but I think regular sun fading works better for pen and marker stains. The less direct the sun is in your location, the longer it takes. Some people report it taking months in cloudy areas. The sun is very intense where I'm at and I can do it in a day or two, but many places are not that lucky. Hydrogen peroxide breaks down into water and oxygen quickly when exposed to light, so if you're in a cloudy area and need to use it for an extended time, you may need to dump it out and replace it periodically. I don't think we know enough about this method yet to know if prolonged exposure puts the pony at a higher risk for bad side effects. If everyone keeps posting your results, I really want to learn more about what other folks are observing.
Yeah, I actually tried getting the glue stains out by just sunfading her all last summer and no difference so thought I'd try the peroxide soak. Might end up baiting her if I can't get the stains out :(
What about painting over the glue stains?
Yeah, I think if I can't get the stains out I'll just customize her and giver her a full body repaint. Just a bit disappointed cause I'd read about so many awesome results from peroxide + sunfading and was sure it would work, but nothing so far :(
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My only concern about stuff being so promoted is the people who now view it as basic cleaning, thus nothing to keep track of or disclose during sale. This is a RESTORATION so a pony is no longer original, and will never be mint even if it looks that way. the pony should somehow have an identifier as a reminder for what was done to it- to preserve the value of ones collection. (I use some white thread at the base of the tail to mark it as treated by H202). I mostly stopped buying ponies from collectors/pony resellers years ago due to getting bit with undisclosed restores sold as Mint or NM.
This is a huge concern for me. I would never wish to buy a pony that has been boiled, treated with HPO, bleached or sunfaded for long periods but I think that with more people trying out restoration techniques these things will become increasingly common. I have most of my collection now but there is still a risk that I will buy those remaining expensive ponies only to haver their hair disintegrate or the brown spots come up after a few months or they will go hard. There is no accountability because these interventions just speed up decay that would have happened anyway, the question is how fast and how long do you have left to enjoy your object? I feel bad for new G1 collectors because it is getting rarer to find ponies that have not been damaged by collectors.
I have a background in scientific research and have experience of collections work in museums so I feel as though I am a relatively safe pair of hands, but when I see the damage some people do to ponies it's difficult not to begrudge people just 'having a go' with household chemicals and no understanding of how they interact with plastics. Generally I've tried to avoid threads where I think people are getting things wrong especially if the correct information is out there and has been repeated time and time again. I think that people ignore my posts (because why should I be any authority) and it makes me unpopular, but sometimes I do pop something in because I think it's a shame that ponies are being damaged. In general, harsh chemicals and treatments are not a valid 'quick fix', they only speed up the decay of the objects in the long term. Patience and elbow grease can do a lot without damaging the pony. I did post a load of repeated info but I really need to stop myself.
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My only concern about stuff being so promoted is the people who now view it as basic cleaning, thus nothing to keep track of or disclose during sale. This is a RESTORATION so a pony is no longer original, and will never be mint even if it looks that way. the pony should somehow have an identifier as a reminder for what was done to it- to preserve the value of ones collection. (I use some white thread at the base of the tail to mark it as treated by H202). I mostly stopped buying ponies from collectors/pony resellers years ago due to getting bit with undisclosed restores sold as Mint or NM.
This is a huge concern for me. I would never wish to buy a pony that has been boiled, treated with HPO, bleached or sunfaded for long periods but I think that with more people trying out restoration techniques these things will become increasingly common. I have most of my collection now but there is still a risk that I will buy those remaining expensive ponies only to haver their hair disintegrate or the brown spots come up after a few months or they will go hard. There is no accountability because these interventions just speed up decay that would have happened anyway, the question is how fast and how long do you have left to enjoy your object? I feel bad for new G1 collectors because it is getting rarer to find ponies that have not been damaged by collectors.
I have a background in scientific research and have experience of collections work in museums so I feel as though I am a relatively safe pair of hands, but when I see the damage some people do to ponies it's difficult not to begrudge people just 'having a go' with household chemicals and no understanding of how they interact with plastics. Generally I've tried to avoid threads where I think people are getting things wrong especially if the correct information is out there and has been repeated time and time again. I think that people ignore my posts (because why should I be any authority) and it makes me unpopular, but sometimes I do pop something in because I think it's a shame that ponies are being damaged. In general, harsh chemicals and treatments are not a valid 'quick fix', they only speed up the decay of the objects in the long term. Patience and elbow grease can do a lot without damaging the pony. I did post a load of repeated info but I really need to stop myself.
I think everyone here agrees that you should disclose any work you did on a pony when selling it. That's not really what we're discussing. If you have specific information that would be beneficial, please do share it. If you've worked in museums, then you should have lots of good input. I wouldn't assume that you're being ignored if someone hasn't seen your posts. I scan for restoration posts periodically, but personally don't have time to be on the boards that much. For years now all I've ever seen is speculation about side effects hydrogen peroxide may have down the line. All I've ever seen anyone confirm for sure is that sometimes brown spots re-appear after a time, and fading can happen (which obviously, anything exposed to the sun can fade), along with what I included in my first post. I tried this years ago on some really awful condition ponies, and they're still just fine. Other toy communities use this all the time. We have undeniable evidence of damage remove-zit and benzoyl peroxide can do, but I have yet to see anyone show for sure evidence where sun fading or hydrogen peroxide cause harm beyond what's already been listed.
Post Merge: July 06, 2016, 06:56:43 PM
I began with dissection and found that the spots (which I am starting to call colonies because I am increasingly convinced they are bacterial colonies from their growth patterns and what happens to them when they are boiled)
Lostpony, have you seen this? I thought you might find it useful if you haven't: http://www.mylittleponynews.com/2010/10/pony-science-pony-cancer-under.html
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I have not seen that, and the video does not play for me. Does it still work for you?
I've been hounding my friend for months to return my microscope so I could examine a few specimens.
A bacteria that specializes in deteriorating and / or particular types of plastics is a kinda scary sort of thing...like the Andromeda Strain, no? I have a number of questions that my microscope could help me answer: why the sharp contrast between two specific shades of brown? A fading scale would be more indicated in a deterioration or a single organism. To me, two colors says 1) biological and 2) 2 symbiotic organisms. Circular colonies is more consistent with bacteria than mold or deterioration.
Boiling them for an hour causing the entire colony to raise and the darker part to raise more is consistent with destroying biological tissue. I can think of no other explanation. My evidence so far is observational, with only naked eye but I believe consistent with bacteria. Also the conditions of every pony I have had with this except for those particularly vulnerable to it like Fire Chief have been very poor like an ebay lot that had very much been in rat nesting area for a significant length of time, others experience that trapped moisture is a factor, the way cancer is spread all across the same pony but not necessarily on a pony next to it, that sort of thing. That it happens to older ponies and to specific ponies lke fire chief suggests there is a component of the materials that is food for the bacteria that is present in some ponies but has to develop in others through some sort of decay...or possibly that the bacteria comes from a source that is present in manufacture of some ponies, but bacteria that lasts so long as to wait around decades before occurring is less probable than is a commonly available bacteria that can infect ponies with certain specific materials present.
Lots of good questions, few answers.
So I just called my friend and hounded him some more. It's in a box somewhere in his stuff and I emphasized how it is the last thing my mom owned that I still have plus that I need it.
I edited some of my posts around emphasizing that the methods I describe are for LOST ponies only. Wait a minute...lost ponies....oh no, get that boiling water away from me I didn't mean it's for lostponies....
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OK then.
Hydrogen peroxide is reported to have little negative effects on soft plastics at low concentrations. However, it may damage nylon more easily and therefore affect hair.
Try this table of interactions and note the concentrations. The information on compatibility ratings is limited (see the bottom section of the page) but they do tell you that the exposure was 48 hours only.
http://www.ozoneservices.com/articles/004.htm (http://www.ozoneservices.com/articles/004.htm)
However, we are talking here about HPO being used in combination with UV light to perform essentially this process: http://www.calpoly.edu/~ceenve/enve/jsczechowski/enve436/projects/UV/UV-Ozone-Peroxide.html (http://www.calpoly.edu/~ceenve/enve/jsczechowski/enve436/projects/UV/UV-Ozone-Peroxide.html)
And there are many implications. I thought it was interesting is the effect of an iron catalyst... so whether or not you leave the tail washer in could have an effect.
You might also like...
http://www.fibrenew.com/blog/how-to-clean-vinyl-boat-seats-cleaner-water-bleach-distilled-water/ (http://www.fibrenew.com/blog/how-to-clean-vinyl-boat-seats-cleaner-water-bleach-distilled-water/)
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All RIGHT! Now we're talking, thanks for the hard data!
Some questions:
1. On the material compatibility chart: which material on the left is a pony anyway? All those material types are way over my head...also the consumer HPO we have available is 3% which is 1/3 the lowest concentration, so do we scan across the concentrations columns to extrapolate where 3% is? It's probably not linear right?
2. The UV and HPO writeup: That is discussing in situations adding ozone (O3) and you are referring to the section on oxidation mostly right? We aren't adding O3 but, H2O2 decays to H2O leaving a free radical single O is that a similar effect and oxidizes similarly to the extra O in the O3->O + O2 they are talking about? I theorized this already as maybe why it works so I hope that is what you mean cuz I would have been right about something today! if that's what you mean.
3. Vinyl boat cleaner article: so we are supposed to be using vinyl specific cleaner then? I notice it talks about a standard mold killer available at a garden store safe enough for boat seats...both products that could be handy for treating / studying pony afflictions....
4. Bonus question: A lot of the abuse I've done so far, in particular boiling, has left pony surface dry without its surface plasticizer (or whatever the actual dry effect is that I think might be lack of plasticizer) that makes pony especially vulnerable to getting grubby, is there a safe vinyl protectant that could be applied to the surface and keep it nice and clean and less vulnerable?
*iron tail washer: No, I get rid of that thing right away, iron=bad, bad, I like nylon, nylon goood plus don't put tail in the peroxide cuz I did notice it hurts the hair color at least for sure. I got some stainless washers for tail but they aren't stainless, are plated over iron so if desperate was thinking of maybe drilling holes in dimes for new washer when nylon not available or good nickel-based real stainless not available
Thanks so much for the great info!
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All RIGHT! Now we're talking, thanks for the hard data!
Some questions:
1. On the material compatibility chart: which material on the left is a pony anyway? All those material types are way over my head...also the consumer HPO we have available is 3% which is 1/3 the lowest concentration, so do we scan across the concentrations columns to extrapolate where 3% is? It's probably not linear right?
It's PVC, polyvinyl chloride
The lowest concentration on the chart is 10% with exposure for 48 hours. My understanding is that collectors are using lower concentrations but with longer exposure times.
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...*iron tail washer: No, I get rid of that thing right away, iron=bad, bad, I like nylon, nylon goood plus don't put tail in the peroxide cuz I did notice it hurts the hair color at least for sure. I got some stainless washers for tail but they aren't stainless, are plated over iron so if desperate was thinking of maybe drilling holes in dimes for new washer when nylon not available or good nickel-based real stainless not available...
FYI- Most customizers/restorers use zip ties as replacements for both the tail washer, as well as the crimped metal piece (if applicable). I have customs that I re-haired nearly 10 years ago and they have held up perfectly. :)
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It's PVC, polyvinyl chloride
The lowest concentration on the chart is 10% with exposure for 48 hours. My understanding is that collectors are using lower concentrations but with longer exposure times.
I think 6% is the highest concentration you can buy in a store? I've never left my ponies in the sun for more than 2 days, probably about 12 hours total, but people in areas with less direct sunlight have to leave theirs for longer.
You might find this interesting too: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1658365514000880
Anyone know much about any of these things? "In order to protect against the damaging effects of UVR on polymers, addition of UV light absorbers, excited state quenchers, hindered amine light stabilizers (HALS), hydroperoxide decomposers, radical scavengers, pigments, fillers and antioxidants are an effective and convenient solution in practice."
It seems to me that it's not hydrogen peroxide we need to be worried about, it's the sun and heat. Especially since a lot of the collectors who worry about peroxide are happy to sunfade. If we can figure out how to use the peroxide to fade stains, without the need for the sun, then that sounds like a safer option. Except that I haven't had much luck using peroxide without the sun, and several other collectors have told me the same thing.
As far as the hair goes, people will just need to decide what they think is more important, getting rid of the spots, or preserving the hair. In five years of testing this out, I haven't had any ponies' hair break off or start to fall out after doing it. In 17 years of collecting I haven't seen issues caused by sunfading besides what is already known (fading, etc.) If someone starts seeing issues, like what happened after removezit got popular, then I'd certainly like to hear about it and see photos.
I think this is pretty safe. It looks like PVC takes years of sun exposure to really start showing the effects (not that ponies are pipes, but it's the closest thing I could find): http://www.uni-bell.org/resources.php?c=41
And apparently PVC takes decades to degrade. Yeah, your ponies can kill you: http://www.greenlivingtips.com/articles/pvc-and-the-environment.html
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Hi there, thanks for the extra links. Will have a read.
Tail washers I just remove if rusty and replace tail with no anchor - or if only slightly rusty I sand off the rust and coat with a varnish before replacing in a bone dry pony. This conserves the original washer as part of the pony. I don't use cable ties because different plastics can interact badly. At the V&A museum of childhood they are aware of this and separate Barbie and store their parts seperately according to the type of plastic. I have no evidence for cable ties being bad for ponies in this way but as always err on the side of caution. However cable ties can be a pain to remove if deep cleansing is needed again in the future.
One more note - i have only once found a tail where the crimp was so corroded i had to remove it so i think that might have been a replacement. Even if they look rusty do not remove because its just surface corrosion. I think the crimps are usually made of aluminum. Just de 'rust' with toothpaste and you can try vinegar as well. This is good because once that crimp is gone you lose the character of the tail imo.
Re: PVC pipes I've read this before and concluded interesting but seems to be talking about hard PVC? Soft pony PVC is probably less stable due to the jncorporation of plasticisers to soften and bromine as a fire retardant so interesting but I would treat with caution.
Post Merge: July 08, 2016, 02:08:46 AM
You might find this interesting too: http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1658365514000880
Anyone know much about any of these things? "In order to protect against the damaging effects of UVR on polymers, addition of UV light absorbers, excited state quenchers, hindered amine light stabilizers (HALS), hydroperoxide decomposers, radical scavengers, pigments, fillers and antioxidants are an effective and convenient solution in practice."
Thanks that's a great article. I think all of those things listed in the abstract as protective just work against the activity of the UV which is what fades off the stain. Basically by sunfading you are damaging both the stain and the plastic but the stain is (hopefully) defeated well before the plastic shows immediate signs of damage. But that doesn't mean the damage isn't there.
The notes about high temperatures seem to support my views about avoiding extremes of heat as well.
Also interesting is the need to stabilise aromatic bromine (used as a fire retardant) against UV light (fig 32). The theory I am sticking to about pony cancer (and as others have stated as well) is that pony cancer or brown spotting is caused by the release of molecules of bromine as the plastic breaks down. Bromine was added as a fire retardant. When bonded to the plastic bromine is colourless, but when it is no longer bonded to the plastic is changes to a brown colour. This colour change is a common high school experiment 'decolourisation of bromine' and you can look it up easily.
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I imagine a sun faded pony would be okay for a child to play with- would an oxy boil pony or peroxide-soaked pony be okay as well? I have a few ponies with unacceptable stains and I would like to try to get them out but I need them to be child-safe afterward.
Some of the pen stains, I have tried the method of heating the pony in hot water, applying antibacterial soap, and scraping. I have had little success in drastically lightening the pen stains but this takes a very long time and I am not sure if it is worth it for the purpose. Any thoughts?
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this is a wonderful thread! I look forward to seeing how these peroxide soaked ponies hold up over time
I haven't tried one yet, but I have a few bait big brothers (true bait that *will* be customized and are not even salvageable for an alt rehair) that I may test it on. but then I wonder...how will painting (Especially a FBR) work over the peroxide-soaked body?
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I imagine a sun faded pony would be okay for a child to play with- would an oxy boil pony or peroxide-soaked pony be okay as well? I have a few ponies with unacceptable stains and I would like to try to get them out but I need them to be child-safe afterward.
Some of the pen stains, I have tried the method of heating the pony in hot water, applying antibacterial soap, and scraping. I have had little success in drastically lightening the pen stains but this takes a very long time and I am not sure if it is worth it for the purpose. Any thoughts?
Ok, personally I have stopped giving children vintage toys period I keep my stuff out of reach of both children and pets.(even those in seemingly good repair). I posted something a while back about a lab taking 80's stuff and finding lead and cadmium in the vinyl (yes, even in 80's MLP). it can be absorbed through skin. So now I hoard extra pretty g3's and g4's for my kids that get to "see the collection and get a free pony from the pony lady" box. :)
I would never give a child any vintage toy which was once, or becomes slimy to the touch or heavily weathered. (and sunfading, heat UV this all starts damage/breakdown) Sadly since lead and cadmuim ended up in our playthings anyway and the concern is as they break down they can be adsorbed through skin. you also don't want them getting old plasticizers all over their hands either. If you have concerns though the person to ask is your pediatrician, or a musuem conservator with knowledge of 80's plastic's.
Exceptions of course are older kids who want them as a collectible and not for play. They can't hurt you in a curio.
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Hi sorry to pop in but I wanted to know how well pony cancer has been treated with peroxide soaks and if you do a soak would be ok to cover up cutie marks with electrical tape?
(im planning on soaking a friends Bowtie who has some faint cancer marks to see if it helps)
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I imagine a sun faded pony would be okay for a child to play with- would an oxy boil pony or peroxide-soaked pony be okay as well? I have a few ponies with unacceptable stains and I would like to try to get them out but I need them to be child-safe afterward.
Some of the pen stains, I have tried the method of heating the pony in hot water, applying antibacterial soap, and scraping. I have had little success in drastically lightening the pen stains but this takes a very long time and I am not sure if it is worth it for the purpose. Any thoughts?
Ok, personally I have stopped giving children vintage toys period I keep my stuff out of reach of both children and pets.(even those in seemingly good repair). I posted something a while back about a lab taking 80's stuff and finding lead and cadmium in the vinyl (yes, even in 80's MLP). it can be absorbed through skin. So now I hoard extra pretty g3's and g4's for my kids that get to "see the collection and get a free pony from the pony lady" box. :)
I would never give a child any vintage toy which was once, or becomes slimy to the touch or heavily weathered. (and sunfading, heat UV this all starts damage/breakdown) Sadly since lead and cadmuim ended up in our playthings anyway and the concern is as they break down they can be adsorbed through skin. you also don't want them getting old plasticizers all over their hands either. If you have concerns though the person to ask is your pediatrician, or a musuem conservator with knowledge of 80's plastic's.
Exceptions of course are older kids who want them as a collectible and not for play. They can't hurt you in a curio.
Ahh what a bummer. I had considered not giving my children mint condition (or even good condition) vintage toys to play with and was instead planning on giving them restored toys to play with (since they lose so much of their collectible value already) but I had not even considered your points- which are very good points for my husband and I to think about.
I don't think it makes much of a difference but I had been picking up hairless ponies, bent ponies, and stained ponies. Since fixing these issues compromises the collectible value but does not contribute to toxicity I thought these would be great hand-me-downs but it sounds like maybe not! Thank you for your input!
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I imagine a sun faded pony would be okay for a child to play with- would an oxy boil pony or peroxide-soaked pony be okay as well? I have a few ponies with unacceptable stains and I would like to try to get them out but I need them to be child-safe afterward.
Some of the pen stains, I have tried the method of heating the pony in hot water, applying antibacterial soap, and scraping. I have had little success in drastically lightening the pen stains but this takes a very long time and I am not sure if it is worth it for the purpose. Any thoughts?
Ok, personally I have stopped giving children vintage toys period I keep my stuff out of reach of both children and pets.(even those in seemingly good repair). I posted something a while back about a lab taking 80's stuff and finding lead and cadmium in the vinyl (yes, even in 80's MLP). it can be absorbed through skin. So now I hoard extra pretty g3's and g4's for my kids that get to "see the collection and get a free pony from the pony lady" box. :)
I would never give a child any vintage toy which was once, or becomes slimy to the touch or heavily weathered. (and sunfading, heat UV this all starts damage/breakdown) Sadly since lead and cadmuim ended up in our playthings anyway and the concern is as they break down they can be adsorbed through skin. you also don't want them getting old plasticizers all over their hands either. If you have concerns though the person to ask is your pediatrician, or a musuem conservator with knowledge of 80's plastic's.
Exceptions of course are older kids who want them as a collectible and not for play. They can't hurt you in a curio.
I just wanted to second this. Lead and pthalates I heard.
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I wonder if coating the hair in petroleum jelly would protect it during peroxide soaking? Or some other substance?
Of course then the question is would the petroleum react in any way with the peroxide?
I really appreciate this thread, as I love to clean items but have often pondered the implications of "restoration" and long term changes they might cause. I don't have any clear answers, of course, but I do worry we might look back one day with regret on various fixes that seemed harmless at the time. I think these discussions are great and I use them to help guide my cleaning practices.
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Artemesia Floc, First I want to say that your input is extremely valuable to those of us who rush in without sufficient knowledge to attack a problem, and destroy damaged ponies. I believe no one should dislike you for being a voice of cost and caution. Whether we respond to you or not, we are given valuable food for thought and may question our methods, for example my cavalier use of ridiculously strong bleach soaks because I was leery of products with names, like Oxi Clean. Next time I am tempted to use dangerously strong bleach, I will instead get some Oxi Clean because you, a proponent of conservative methods, consider it safe.
I am also glad to see you re-insert tails without any anchor at all because that is what I have been starting to do. I don't think putting a dangerous hunk of degradable iron back in the pony to preserve its originality is a good thing at all...I've been keeping the tail washers, but not together with the ponies. There is a valid conservation argument with keeping the washer with the pony....but, I don't think anyone wants the original old battery corroding away their classic car. Some things just have to go, for the good of the rest of an item. As to the crimp, yes most of them are safely non-ferrous and they can easily be tested for iron by seeing if they stick to a magnet.
I'd like to address the issue of Bromine and other additives. Obviously PVC ponies are not like hard PVC water pipes so there is a serious cocktail of things blended together to make pony plastic and it is something I am personally ignorant of and value any knowledge to increase my understanding of the mysterious recipe I am toying with. However, I have collected some very specific data from my Fire Chief "case study" on pony cancer, following a Moonstone dissection and based on observations from a Bright Eyes "stabilization" boil. While I have not completed my case study (due to things not quite wrapping up without need of further steps I am hoping to complete soon), I have taken a lot of pictures along the way and the jumbled up, unindexed archive is here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzP8lAXs8KOWV2gtM3paWnZBekE Buried in there, and findable by the dates pics are taken, are my before pics showing the brown spots I believe we can all agree are "centerpoint cancer". I then applied boiling, a seriously excessive amount of boiling time in fact, though I got little change in the spots after the first few hours. What happens in the boil is that the light brown color fades to white, and the material is raised, and the darker part in the center becomes smaller, and sometimes darker, and the material is raised even more than the areas of the lighter color. Of course the entire white pony yellowed. I applied the peroxide-bath sunfade to correct that yellowing, and found that the darker spot left in the raised area in the center also becomes white. If I had stopped there, as pictures show, the pony color is nice and white with no brown left at all, but the original cancer spots are raised, or as I call them, "scars". I used 400 grit wet-sanding paper to remove those scars, and found that underneath there are still some very light brown spots left. The most recent pics in the archive show these. My next step is to see if further boiling affects those leftover spots or not.
My Moonstone dissection shows that the cancer spots are deep in the material...basically centered in the material in most examples. Also most examples have spots perfectly round. Exceptions to both of these seem to be where a contaminant exists...for example, in my Bright Eyes, there was a cancer spot on each side of a trapped fiber of some sort in the neck seam. Another example was in the dissection Moonstone, where in one spot, the center dark spot was like a "rod" that was closer to one surface at one end and the other surface at the other end. Each of the other cancer spots I have examined are all perfectly round, and have a clear change from the darker part in the center to the lighter part that surrounds the center...not a gentle fade but a clear contrast line.
What I want to address is, how does my observation fit the theory of Bromine or other leaking materials? Would those leaking materials really be consistent with the shape of the spots we are all observing? Would boiling re-combine those leaking materials into the PVC, or remove them to explain the loss of the brown color I am observing by boiling? In either case, does that explain the change in shape of the material as I am observing? I took a lot of pictures with different angles of lighting to show the raised material areas, and to show the loss of brown color, and they are all unedited and in the archive above.
To me, the shape of the spots (and what happens to them when boiled) is consistent with life. Bacteria particularly, and the sharp contrast in color suggests possible dual organisms like in lichens. Further, cancer spots appear on ponies that are stored in poor conditions, and particularly on certain ponies that develop it commonly like Fire Chief. To me this suggests that certain formulations probably contain or leak a particular additive or contaminant, and if the spots are biological, then they must feed on that leaked substance. Also moisture or other conditions must either advantage the organism or further the leaking of the substance.
Finally, is there any information available as to exactly what formulations of materials were actually used on particular ponies? At one point such information must have existed. Where was it kept? Communications between Hasbro and their manufacturing would have references. Manufacturing recipes absolutely must have existed. Where are they? I have no idea how to investigate to find any records that might still exist, only certainty that they once did and suspicion that comparing that information to what we know as collectors different pony materials have tended to do could help us close the gap between theory and factual certain conclusions.
Thanks everypony for participating in this fascinating thread!
Afterthoughts:
Roogna: painting peroxide-soaked ponies. I found that Fire Chief after being boiled (including a different head that was only boiled 2 hours then faded for a week) and peroxide sunfaded for a week has a clean dry surface that is super-vulnerable to smudges. I had dirty hands that I washed thoroughly and still left smudges. So I suspect the surface has been depleted of contaminants like the plasticizer etc that would normally protect the surface from smudging and reduce the bond with the paint so....paint will probably stick even better than ponies you are used to. If those baits are cancered, please boil them at least an hour because regardless of theory it is not known whether it is alive so kill, kill kill.
fizzingmagic: I didn't observe any reduction in cancer from the sunfade alone and worry that adhesives will contaminate the peroxide bath...I have heard about using tissue paper to cover up, and I used foil which worked well enough where I could make it stay put. Bowtie's color might be seriously damaged by peroxide sunfading or boiling! Make sure you have your friend's permission to destroy their Bowtie before trying it or you may damage your friendship. The Bright Eyes that is currently my avatar was boiled for two hours and her color is OK so Bowtie might be OK boiled. Make sure to publish your results so we can learn!
Restoration: I reiterate everything said by everypony as to the risk and destructive nature of the methods I am discussing here, in particular boiling and peroxide sunfading. These are RISKY. No matter how successful they may seem, they are for use on ponies that are otherwise LOST. Please do not use such methods on your otherwise perfectly OK ponies! You may regret it later (or right away). There are so many ponies that are ruined by centerpoint cancer so they are what I choose to play mad scientist on. Please don't ruin your good ponies that less destructive methods will help.
Thanks FarDreamer for this thread!
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For the folks asking about covering the symbols, I've never needed to for a peroxide soak, but I do cover them for sun fading. I don't know if it's that I don't leave mine outside for that long, but I've never had issues with the symbols fading during a soak. I have had pink and red hair fade, but not other colors.
Also, I won't bore everyone with a bunch more links to articles, but nearly everything I've read about PVC makes some sort of statement about how pvc is used for all sorts of stuff "pipes, industrial use, medical equipment, toys" and they often discuss the use of plasticiser. However, they've never said that the addition of plasticiser changes the way it interacts with other compounds, and I'm sure they would know about this, so I'm thinking the effect is has must be minimal.
About the bromine thing, this guy has a lot to say: https://www.quora.com/What-is-happening-in-terms-of-a-chemical-process-when-hydrogen-peroxide-is-used-to-restore-discoloured-Lego
And yes, I am aware that ABS and PVC aren't the same thing, but I've just started reading on how that affects toys and don't have a lot of info to pass on yet.
http://radiantdreamer.net/differences-in-plastics-abs-pvc-vinyl-resin-polystone-oh-my/
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Also, I won't bore everyone with a bunch more links to articles, but nearly everything I've read about PVC makes some sort of statement about how pvc is used for all sorts of stuff "pipes, industrial use, medical equipment, toys" and they often discuss the use of plasticiser. However, they've never said that the addition of plasticiser changes the way it interacts with other compounds, and I'm sure they would know about this, so I'm thinking the effect is has must be minimal.
Articles are interesting. those who are bored can choose not to click. :) Share away.
I may harp on using caution with restorations that involve soaking, bleaching, UV and various cleaning agents beyond a mild soap that is washed off (as well as record keeping and identifiers on restored ponies).
But, more important is how we display and store our collections which has a lot of influence on what will happen to our collectible toys. It's not new information that heat is VERY, VERY damaging. (Thank you for sharing that- heat absolutely is enemy #1) Hot storage unit will absolutely destroy a collection in short order, as well storage in attics (just try and go up there in the summer. You'll swelter) and sheds, garages. Even inside a home without AC to cool the room toys are kept. If you had a worthless pony (not treated prior with anything), cut her up and preform an accelerated aging experiment. a piece in the attic (or anywhere as HOT as you can find with high heat like your car in the summer) piece on your display shelf, peroxide a couple pieces and keep one in your collection too, and another in the high heat area. :) Reminding me to find my bait bait bait box. It would be interesting to see how the two different pieces react to high heat. will one turn brown first? ooze more? etc.
"Degradation of Plasticizers" starts on page two. http://cool.conservation-us.org/waac/wn/wn32/wn32-2/wn32-204.pdf
Our MLP by weight is likely over 40%. Most MLP is quite soft and malleable. so triggering the aging process, leeching them out is something we do most definitely want to avoid. (sticky droplets on surfaces attracting stains, off gassing VOC's, deforming the figure as it shrinks etc)
*edit*
From the Smithsonian. (bolding by me) https://www.si.edu/mci/downloads/articles/ecoEXCHANGE-Winter2009.pdf
"Migration of plasticizers via evaporation is the major cause
of plastics’ instability. Plasticizers are low-molecular-weight
resins or liquids that form a noncovalent (weaker bond) to
plastics. Plasticizers are added to reduce a plastic’s tensile
strength, hardness, and density. For example, PVC pipes
have no plasticizers (phthalate); PVC-based toys have
30-50% phthalate. Migration refers to a component that
leaves a material as a gas, liquid, or solid. Plasticizers can
evaporate into the environment as a gas and deposit as a
liquid or solid onto the surface of the plastics. Plasticizers
such as phthalate and bisphenol-A (BPA) are recognized as
endocrine disruptors by the medical community and are
classified as priority pollutants by most regulatory bodies.
The sticky films on the surface of plastics are often associ-
ated with the liquid plasticizers. These sticky films trap
dust. Never use a bare hand to touch this dusty sticky
surface; instead wipe the sticky films with a non-abrasive
cloth or microfiber, and dispose of the waste properly."
Medical bags and lines that are PVC (also soft and malleable) are also different from toys. Toys are kept, and in our case for decades past it's intended "life". The medical equipment is used while intact and new before aging, and disposed of after. It doesn't get a chance to degrade first.
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My quick bits:
#1 Baby Glory's blue mane stripe fades in a peroxide sunbath. ~2-3 days.
#2 If pony accessories revert to yellowed state after peroxide treatment, am I better off restoring my personal PE's roof to the proper pink with spray paint? (found a good color at Michael's)
#3 Sticky plastic: G2 Hip Holly is very sticky. How should I clean her? With non-abrasive cloth and water? Soap? Rubbing alcohol?
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Fire Chief's symbol faded dramatically when I used peroxide and direct sunlight. Masking is very important and while I had trouble getting foil to stay in place, it was effective where it covered. I have heard of using tissue paper. I hesitate to use tape or anything like that and since nopony is jumping in with clear knowledge as to masks for peroxide sunfades, I might experiment by palcing tape in smaller volumes of peroxide in the sun just to test whether it is stable. However, not all adhesive is the same so, that test would have to be repeated for each roll, or at least brand, of tape each time before using which would be OK, just test it and label it for htat purpose alone and it will last a long time. Assuming it test-drives OK and I will be checking that out pretty soon.
I have in the short time I've observed 2 specimens of Fire Chief (month or two) the yellowing has stayed away with no hints that it is coming back (so far).
Fire Chief's blue hair definitely turned purple in a couple days where the foil didn't cover it. Mask that hair!
I have a Gingerbread on the way and when she arrives I will continue my experiments, and try out better masks as well so will have more on these things in a week or two I hope.
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#2 If pony accessories revert to yellowed state after peroxide treatment, am I better off restoring my personal PE's roof to the proper pink with spray paint? (found a good color at Michael's)
I decided I don't like using the hair bleaching stuff: http://www.mlppreservationproject.com/accessories.html#Playsets I'm pretty willing to try different restoration techniques, but this stuff was way too messy and I kept burning myself with it. So I painted my Lullabye Nursery and my Show Stable and they turned out great. I didn't use spray paint, just regular brush on craft acrylic, but I don't know why spray paint wouldn't work. I sealed them with a brush on glaze before I found out that some customizers have had issues with glazes getting sticky with time, so I've been watching out for sticky-ness with mine. I recently discovered spray on mod podge, which is wonderful stuff!
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#2 If pony accessories revert to yellowed state after peroxide treatment, am I better off restoring my personal PE's roof to the proper pink with spray paint? (found a good color at Michael's)
#3 Sticky plastic: G2 Hip Holly is very sticky. How should I clean her? With non-abrasive cloth and water? Soap? Rubbing alcohol?
#2. I got a broken heat damaged nursery many years ago. Cut the bottle front door off to use as a display. it was pretty brown. Krylon for plastic held up really well. It comes in a spray can. Not tacky, smooth, nice and white still. I painted it well before 05' I think 03'? (I know it was at least a year before visiting BC and moving... guessing 03'-04' ish. I didn't seal it after with anything beyond the paint.
I am wondering if heat damage is the thing that reverts with H202 when I did tests of peices, all the ones which appeared heat damaged re yellowed. some stayed nice, but the surface finish on those was noticably different, and the yellowing was far less intense only in spots the sun would have hit. They also didn't feel "brittle" like storage unit in the sun, garage, shed or attic rescues. (the surface finish on the heat damaged stuff wasn't smooth. it was very slightly rough)
#3 Microfiber. Dampen it, wring it out and wipe. Wear gloves. and don't use the gloves or the cloth for other things. (So as to not transfer plasticizers.). From the quote I had above. It does work. :)
"The sticky films on the surface of plastics are often associ-
ated with the liquid plasticizers. These sticky films trap
dust. Never use a bare hand to touch this dusty sticky
surface; instead wipe the sticky films with a non-abrasive
cloth or microfiber, and dispose of the waste properly."
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I know this theme is really old, but I would like to ask a question. Do we need to use the sun? It's the UV we need to sunfade and I figured an UV lamp would work much better. We don't have a lot of sunny days in Russia so sunfading is almost impossible. Are UV lamps dangerous? Have anyone used an UV lamp instead of the sun?
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I`m so confused :huh: .
Are nasty microbes eating my ponies? Or is the plastic/vinyl breaking down?
Do I boil them for 10 min like baby bottles to kill the microbes?
Soak them in H2O2 to kill the microbes?
Or are those treatments going to speed up the break down process?
"Oh the horror, the horror..."
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I know this theme is really old, but I would like to ask a question. Do we need to use the sun? It's the UV we need to sunfade and I figured an UV lamp would work much better. We don't have a lot of sunny days in Russia so sunfading is almost impossible. Are UV lamps dangerous? Have anyone used an UV lamp instead of the sun?
It doesn't seem to work without the sun, which sucks since it's most likely the sun that causes the fading. I'd be curious to know if a UV lamp works. I assume it would have to be full spectrum. They do get hot, but otherwise, I don't know why they'd be dangerous. I guess if they are more intense than the sun then they might cause worse fading? I'm going to have to steal my turtle's lamp and try this out . . .
Post Merge: January 05, 2017, 08:01:21 PM
I`m so confused :huh: .
Are nasty microbes eating my ponies? Or is the plastic/vinyl breaking down?
Do I boil them for 10 min like baby bottles to kill the microbes?
Soak them in H2O2 to kill the microbes?
Or are those treatments going to speed up the break down process?
"Oh the horror, the horror..."
So I understand where this can get confusing. Collectors used to believe that the cancer/age spots were caused by fungus, then they decided for various reasons that they are caused by a breakdown of the vinyl. I recently bought a book on caring for vinyl dolls that was written by a chemist, and he says that it is actually most likely a fungus. The brown spot is a stain left by the fungus. There is a type of breakdown caused by exposure to chlorine, which can also be triggered by some other things, but according to him this leave brown streaks, not round spots. Here's what the book says about the rest of your questions:
Are nasty microbes eating my ponies? Or is the plastic/vinyl breaking down? - according to him it's probably fungus
Do I boil them for 10 min like baby bottles to kill the microbes? - He didn't mention this being necessary, keeping them stored in an area with less than 70 percent humidity keeps the fungus from growing. Fungi are everywhere, if the humidity gets to high it will grow on the vinyl.
Soak them in H2O2 to kill the microbes? - I don't know if it kills it or not, but the peroxide cleans out the stain and aids in bleaching it. Why sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't I haven't figured out yet.
Or are those treatments going to speed up the break down process? - he recommends some products with much higher concentrations of H2O2 than the stuff you can get at a pharmacy, so I'm assuming the lower concentrations are also safe. (I don't know yet if these products are safe for dyed vinyl or would cause similar problems as remove-zit) Just keep in mind, while the peroxide doesn't react badly with vinyl, it is bad for nylon, the ponies hair.
I hope that helps!
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Can never have enough of these threads! I love science applied to collecting. :D
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This thread was a great read. Though I'm a little worried about handling my G1's now :P
I have a G1 Lofty with quite a bit of cancer on her face. I'm going to try the peroxide soak and will post before and afterward photos. She needs to be re-haired as well. But now that I've read that the brown spots are most likely caused by a fungus, should I have her around my other ponies? Will the fungus spread?
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But now that I've read that the brown spots are most likely caused by a fungus, should I halve her around my other ponies? Will the fungus spread?
He says that fungal spores are everywhere, and if the humidity goes above 70%, it will attack the vinyl. It doesn't really matter if there are already stained ponies around or not. The vinyl provides a substrate for the fungus and it feeds of off the plasticizer. What we call smooze can also be caused by fungus, and another type can cause the pink stains that are common on vinyl.
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I've recently acquired a handful of baits some of which have age spots different from what I call cancer: my definition is more accurately described as "centerpoint cancer". These new (to me) age spots seem roughly round but not crisply circular and lack a darker spot in the center. I'll be examining them more closely.
However, what I regard as centerpoint cancer is a less simple mystery than "degradation of plastic" or "staining from fungal growth" because it appears to occur first in the deeper plastic, and further from the dark center, the discoloration is deep in the material not even at the surface (casting doubt on environmentally present fungus which is largely aerobic, or oxygen-requiring) and the crisp round shape of the development looks bacterial like colonies grown from a swab on a petri dish. Examined axiomatically with basic observation and general knowledge, centerpoint cancer appears to be bacteria, possibly two types working symbiotically, one aerobic (the dark center spot that is present both deep and at the surface) and anaerobic (the less-dark portion that surrounds the darker spot and seems to avoid the surface).
Nonetheless, without more specific knowledge about the materials and testing for the "degradation" products or the potential organisms, it is as yet impossible to know what is really going on. Further these imperfectly round spots without dark centers do appear more like fungus and yet still can't be known for sure without much better knowledge and testing.
However, I think we can reasonably rely on the experience of collectors with a keen eye and carefully gathered observations over time to conclude that: the spots don't seem to migrate from the affected ponies to unaffected ponies while being kept in good collection conditions (below 70% humidity or better below 50%, and no extreme temperatures).
Also after reading the "safe handling of plastics in a museum environment" paper, I strongly disagree that medical and food packaging is safe because it's new: quite the contrary. I've always seen plastics "offgassing" as a half-life sort of thing: younger, it gives off more. My nose tells me so. When it gets older, yes slower migrating plasticizers are released and other degradation cycles become less negligible, but it is without a doubt that new plastics produce lots of bad things and should never be used in food or medical applications. I believe it is considered not a problem because it is "unregulated", hm wonder why. It is unregulated because if any standard were applied to it, you couldn't use it anymore. We can't avoid it being used on our foods and medical stuff but we can avoid heating it up in the microwave etc. This whole deal about plasticizers offgassing...wow. Seriously bad news. We do need to rethink how we store our collections, and keeping them in poorly ventilated pony rooms. But most of all, the paper shows that scrubbing our ponies with lots of soap and water is the right way to go. I've never used my pony toothbrush on my teeth and this practice has been confirmed. I don't plan to use gloves or stop sniffing my ponies though, so I may still die. I think we have a lot more exposure to these unsafe materials in our daily lives than through our ponies though, so there is in my opinion no need to get carried away and fear handling our ponies.
Great food for thought there. Everypony should go ahead and read that paper and consider how we can be a little closer to safe than we are now.
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But now that I've read that the brown spots are most likely caused by a fungus, should I halve her around my other ponies? Will the fungus spread?
He says that fungal spores are everywhere, and if the humidity goes above 70%, it will attack the vinyl. It doesn't really matter if there are already stained ponies around or not. The vinyl provides a substrate for the fungus and it feeds of off the plasticizer. What we call smooze can also be caused by fungus, and another type can cause the pink stains that are common on vinyl.
Ok, that's great news. Thank you. My ponies are on the second floor in my office and it's quite dry-- to my plant's dismay. I will continue to deflock and restore her then :) Very exciting. I am looking forward to trying the peroxide bath method to get rid of her brown spots.
I had always wondered about the pink spots as well. I had though previously they were from nail polish or markers. Thank you again!
@lostpony Thank you so much for sharing! I am glad to know that other collectors haven't found the spots migrating to other ponies in their herd. I am looking forward to continuing her restoration. Thank you again!
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thanks for reading! I've been trying to keep my posts a bit shorter but on this issue I do go on.
As a low-end new collector I was very worried about statements that you don't want to collect those flawed ponies because they're contagious but after a year now of yammering with people around here, I can't find anyone who knows any reports from anyone who has actually had that happen.
So while we don't know whether or what nature of life exactly might be in some of the spots, the spots have not been observed to be contagious. In fact, while my first couple of centerpoint-spotted ponies were each from groups of ponies that had been stored together for a long time including one that had clearly been in a rat-nested box in a dank storage unit (the ebay listed said "good condition" HA), I got other ponies from the same groups and the spots were only on the individual ponies, so I'm convinced they are not very contagious.
While I'm a little obsessed with figuring out what's going on and trying to affect restoration, I don't hesitate to acquire such flawed ponies and this week I found a G1 NBBE baby Moondancer in the wild with body condition problems including centerpoint and other brown spots and I still celebrated my pony luck (got three other G1s the same day, 2 are flawless Yay).
Good luck deflocking etc and don't forget we love to see pics!!
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I wonder if coating the hair in petroleum jelly would protect it during peroxide soaking? Or some other substance?
Of course then the question is would the petroleum react in any way with the peroxide?
I really appreciate this thread, as I love to clean items but have often pondered the implications of "restoration" and long term changes they might cause. I don't have any clear answers, of course, but I do worry we might look back one day with regret on various fixes that seemed harmless at the time. I think these discussions are great and I use them to help guide my cleaning practices.
That's a great idea. I doubt it but I don't know. Might even be able to use paraffin wax. I might have to try it on some spare hair.
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I've thought about this too. The key is to find something that isn't affected by (soluable in) the H2O2 but still doesn't affect the hair (or symbol paint) either.
Most adhesives etc and other things are affected by the peroxide so....if you find something that works especially that blocks light for peroxide sunfading, I'd love to know about it. So far all I know about if foil which is clumsy and hard to use.
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I am looking forward to trying the peroxide bath method to get rid of her brown spots. again!
Just make sure to read about the side effects before trying it: http://www.mlppreservationproject.com/materials.html#HydrogenPeroxide
http://www.mlppreservationproject.com/body.html#Cancer
I use it all the time with good results, and am behind on updating my results on the site, but it does cause damage to the hair and fading so you want to be sure the pros are worth the cons each specific ponies' case.
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Another question about peroxide soaks. Does it need UV or it can be done in complete darkness? Why soaking is important? Can't we just put a towel soaked in peroxide around a problematic area of the pony and re-wet it once in a while? It may take longer, but it can save the hair. Especially if the spots aren't that bad. I have one pony with a pen mark on get hoof. I'll try to put that one hoof in peroxide and see what happens. She's pink by the way and also G4, can she fade?
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Another question about peroxide soaks. Does it need UV or it can be done in complete darkness? - myself and others have tried and it doesn't seem to work, but I don't know why.
Why soaking is important? Can't we just put a towel soaked in peroxide around a problematic area of the pony and re-wet it once in a while? - I don't know, it would be great if it worked. This is something I've been wanting to try: http://www.using-hydrogen-peroxide.com/hydrogen-peroxide-gel.html
G4, can she fade? - I don't know why not, but G4 hair isn't always nylon and I don't know how the different hairs react to it.
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I am looking forward to trying the peroxide bath method to get rid of her brown spots. again!
Just make sure to read about the side effects before trying it: http://www.mlppreservationproject.com/materials.html#HydrogenPeroxide
http://www.mlppreservationproject.com/body.html#Cancer
I use it all the time with good results, and am behind on updating my results on the site, but it does cause damage to the hair and fading so you want to be sure the pros are worth the cons each specific ponies' case.
I'll be sure to read the article. Thank you. She has quite a few brown spots on her face that can't be covered up and her hair is already ruined. I have to rehair her anyway. She is my first re-hair and restore. I've cleaned up ponies with conditioner, a good scrub, and used nail polish remover to take off marks and nail polish and even done some sun fading to get rid of permanent marker, but this will be my first big restore. I am excited :D
I'll take photos of her this week ^_^
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Did you wash the acetone off afterwards? Good luck with your restoration!
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I'm excited to read all this, as I have a couple of ponies in need of a peroxide soak, all hairless and in such bad shape I doubt I'll be able to make them worse even if I manage to mess up somehow. My question is regarding a Confetti who's part of this group though - aside from having cancer on her body, her head is also completely brown? I don't think it's normal discolouration though, as when I took off her head I found that the neckplug/inside the head are still white? The discolouration stops right at the neck seam and doesn't at all continue to her body... What is happening here - does anyone have any ideas? Would a peroxide soak be able to make a difference?
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What is happening here - does anyone have any ideas? Would a peroxide soak be able to make a difference?
It could be a lot of things, but I don't know how we'd know for sure. That's the sort of staining I use peroxide soaks for. Sometimes it totally "fixes" it, sometimes it doesn't do anything. I don't know how you can tell without just trying it.