Musings on G1

[Taffeta]

Interesting questions!

I've been half-heartedly muddling around with my site recently and one realisation I had is there's a difference between how the 80s handle gimmicks and how the 90s does. In general, the really "wtf were hasbro thinking" gimmicks come in the 1990s. Things like the pocket ponies and surprise twins and rollerskaters and things.

For me the TAF and TE and so on are more like features than gimmicks. I get that they are the same in terms of selling points but you could easily say that introducing a unicorn, a pegasus, a sea pony - those were also gimmicks. So the idea that the first 'gimmick' happened in 1985 is probably not entirely accurate, it depends on what a gimmick really is. Is the symbol on the original six being different a gimmick? Is a pastel horse a gimmick? Probably it is.

On the other note, though, the whole thrust of G1 was the collectable mentality and the idea of sets and getting kids to collect them all. I have a bunch of cards and it's also in the G1 comic. This motif of "collect them all and step into the magical world of ponyland" (I think that's the quote). Pony collectafiles (actually called collector file, collector album, not "advertising sales pitch" LOL. SOme of them have ticklists as well. I know off the top of my head that in the UK the one with Strawberry Fair on the front and the 1992 ones both have tick lists - the first for each individual pony, the other for the set.

So the idea of a mane 6 wouldn't really have worked in G1. G1 needed all the variety to work. Not just with set themes but also species, sizes of pony, gender of pony, playsets and the whole of the world. And the idea of it being a world that the kids could collect and build and create but without dictating what form that world should take.

It's really quite impressive because MLP spanned a decade but never needed a core overriding 'canon' that bound everything together.

People give emphasis to the TV series but it was short, sporadic and covered so few ponies it's really an optional rather than an essential to G1. Whereas FIM is the core of G4. That's why the M6 has had currency, because the show has reinforced their importance. G1 has nothing to do that. We have ponies we think of as iconic, but it's different in different places and for different people.

The only real attempt at a cohesive canon across the span of MLP is the UK comic, which covers 85 to what, 93? And it does include almost every pony sold in the UK - but that doesn't incorporate ponies not sold here, and it switches in 93 to the Tales world, so that's two different versions as well. You really see that with how the personas for the Rockin Beats change.

I was often influenced to like a particular pony by the comic. But I never played a single game as a kid based on the comic stories. So I don't think even that was really enough of a 'canon' to be considered definitive. As others have said, G1 was toy first and so the toy's saleability was everything.

I think it's the idea of something for everybody that makes G1 work.

The real difference from G4 though is that G1 didn't have a crutch to build its success and popularity around. G3 and G4 (to a lesser degree G2, not so much there) had G1 already setting up the brand as something people could identify. THe real question is probably what kind of a line G4 would have been if G1 had never existed.

I remember them saying in the Toys That Made Us show that you probably wouldn't get a new toy like G1 MLP now because now toys are often drawing off stuff that already exists. And FIM is definitely in that category.

[Nemesis]

Maybe having a great story and a great toy line together is not so sustainable? I’m having trouble thinking of something that has.

That’s a good observation—the trouble is that storylines and toylines have conflicting interests. A good storyline generally builds on a central cast and their evolving character arcs. Whereas a toyline ideally keeps things fresh and interesting, and avoids repeating itself to the point of being dull. G1’s constantly rotating character roster made it hard to flesh out a coherent story, but G4’s character-focused approach made it hard to move away from the central cast when designing toys.

80s Transformers found themselves backed into a corner by the toyline/storyline conflict of interests. The established characters were beloved and iconic, but it was hard to keep squeezing in new characters as new toys were released. So... they decided to kill off all of those beloved characters in the theatrical film to make room for the new lineup. That uh... ended up being a controversial move.

Honestly, I think lines like American Girl handle things best, by having individual stories focused on separate characters. I would much rather have that for MLP than endless iterations of Twilight Sparkle.

[Taffeta]

I think MH handled the balance of repeat character and new character pretty well in the modern climate. Before they G2ed it into oblivion, I mean.

I also do think that it's not a story vs toy thing though. The comic DID manage to knit together a world with a revolving cast of characters and this concept of memory lane, and certain times of the year when certain ponies would appear (like Fizzy in November) with common locations (like Rainbow Mountain) and so on.

The assumption G1 didn't have any overriding story canon is really true in America, where there really wasn't one, but in European countries there were comics that attempted to do this, by bringing backcard stories into a common world and sustaining it for several years. There was never a sense of ponies being replaced so much as new ones arrived and stories shifted quite naturally to these new sets.

The difference between that and FIM is what I said before - the G1 line didn't depend on kids buying into a story world. There was a story world and there was imaginative play and the comic never prevented one by providing the other.

Whereas FIM's lack of cast variety makes it a lot harder to create your own G4 world.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

Well, the cartoon tried to be an encompassing canon for as long as it lasted, giving all the new ponies and playsets days in the sun throughout its run (although some only got one or two appearances because of how much there was to cover).

I think the cartoon was in important driving force for G1's sales, but you're right that G1 MLP wasn't dependent on it like Transformers was.

Regarding FiM: Frankly, the lack of cast variety in the toyline from how badly oversaturated the Mane 6 were makes it hard to build the official G4 world too. After all, the official G4 world isn't predominantly populated by an endless supply of Mane 6 clones.

[Leave a Whisper]

Well, the cartoon tried to be an encompassing canon for as long as it lasted, giving all the new ponies and playsets days in the sun throughout its run (although some only got one or two appearances because of how much there was to cover).

I think the cartoon was in important driving force for G1's sales, but you're right that G1 MLP wasn't dependent on it like Transformers was.

Regarding FiM: Frankly, the lack of cast variety in the toyline from how badly oversaturated the Mane 6 were makes it hard to build the official G4 world too. After all, the official G4 world isn't predominantly populated by an endless supply of Mane 6 clones.

Invasion of the Body Snatchers

[gabumon]

I don’t mind the occasional gimmick or novel feature - as long as they also have new characters too. 
for example: Loved the jewel-winged “flutter ponies” gimmick in G4 that had that new pink pony with golden hair.  wow i forgot her name.  Honey Flash??
(edit - Honey Rays)

So ya G1 did both of those I think.  Though they did do SS versions of normal ponies.  and technically Baby versions of existing characters.

[Taffeta]

Well, the cartoon tried to be an encompassing canon for as long as it lasted, giving all the new ponies and playsets days in the sun throughout its run (although some only got one or two appearances because of how much there was to cover).

I think the cartoon was in important driving force for G1's sales, but you're right that G1 MLP wasn't dependent on it like Transformers was.

That's also probably regional. I am pretty sure aside the movie nothing MLP (except MAYBE RAMC in the early eighties) aired on TV in the UK until after G1 had ended (in 1995). (LITERALLY closing the gate after a bolting horse!) And then it was on Sky1, I think...which was a cable channel. We had to borrow videos from a friend as we didn't have cable then.

They were all bar one available on VHS, but unlike transformers, Heman, SheRa, thundercats etc, all of which I watched as a kid, MLP didn't seem like a proper TV show over here. And some of those VHS also came out well after the ponies they were talking about. I got Sweet Stuff & the Treasurehunt on VHS in around 1990.

...Very helpful.

So maybe in the US it helped to drive it. Not here.

[LadyMoondancer]

Maybe having a great story and a great toy line together is not so sustainable? I’m having trouble thinking of something that has.

80s Transformers found themselves backed into a corner by the toyline/storyline conflict of interests. The established characters were beloved and iconic, but it was hard to keep squeezing in new characters as new toys were released. So... they decided to kill off all of those beloved characters in the theatrical film to make room for the new lineup. That uh... ended up being a controversial move.

I still find it wild that they thought that was the best way to replace their cast.  Can you imagine if they'd done that for MLP instead of quietly disappearing previous ponies?  "Hey look kids, it's your friends Firefly and Sparkler and Applejack running over to greet you--OH NO, MONSTERS JUST ATTACKED!  DEAD, THEY'RE ALL DEAD!  GRUESOMELY EXECUTED BEFORE YOUR VERY EEEEEYES!!!  So anyway, this is Magic Star, buy her toy."

[Taffeta]

Maybe having a great story and a great toy line together is not so sustainable? I’m having trouble thinking of something that has.

80s Transformers found themselves backed into a corner by the toyline/storyline conflict of interests. The established characters were beloved and iconic, but it was hard to keep squeezing in new characters as new toys were released. So... they decided to kill off all of those beloved characters in the theatrical film to make room for the new lineup. That uh... ended up being a controversial move.

I still find it wild that they thought that was the best way to replace their cast.  Can you imagine if they'd done that for MLP instead of quietly disappearing previous ponies?  "Hey look kids, it's your friends Firefly and Sparkler and Applejack running over to greet you--OH NO, MONSTERS JUST ATTACKED!  DEAD, THEY'RE ALL DEAD!  GRUESOMELY EXECUTED BEFORE YOUR VERY EEEEEYES!!!  So anyway, this is Magic Star, buy her toy."

[Leave a Whisper]

Maybe having a great story and a great toy line together is not so sustainable? I’m having trouble thinking of something that has.

80s Transformers found themselves backed into a corner by the toyline/storyline conflict of interests. The established characters were beloved and iconic, but it was hard to keep squeezing in new characters as new toys were released. So... they decided to kill off all of those beloved characters in the theatrical film to make room for the new lineup. That uh... ended up being a controversial move.

I still find it wild that they thought that was the best way to replace their cast.  Can you imagine if they'd done that for MLP instead of quietly disappearing previous ponies?  "Hey look kids, it's your friends Firefly and Sparkler and Applejack running over to greet you--OH NO, MONSTERS JUST ATTACKED!  DEAD, THEY'RE ALL DEAD!  GRUESOMELY EXECUTED BEFORE YOUR VERY EEEEEYES!!!  So anyway, this is Magic Star, buy her toy."

 

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

^Mind you, given all the horrible monster attacks throughout G1 I've seen some people speculate that stuff like that happened off-camera.

Well, the cartoon tried to be an encompassing canon for as long as it lasted, giving all the new ponies and playsets days in the sun throughout its run (although some only got one or two appearances because of how much there was to cover).

I think the cartoon was in important driving force for G1's sales, but you're right that G1 MLP wasn't dependent on it like Transformers was.

That's also probably regional. I am pretty sure aside the movie nothing MLP (except MAYBE RAMC in the early eighties) aired on TV in the UK until after G1 had ended (in 1995). (LITERALLY closing the gate after a bolting horse!) And then it was on Sky1, I think...which was a cable channel. We had to borrow videos from a friend as we didn't have cable then.

Well, yeah, it's a regional thing. You had said "The assumption G1 didn't have any overriding story canon is really true in America", and I was countering that in fact the cartoon tried to serve as one here (for as long as it lasted) as well as a sales-driving force.

[lovesbabysquirmy]

Maybe having a great story and a great toy line together is not so sustainable? I’m having trouble thinking of something that has.

80s Transformers found themselves backed into a corner by the toyline/storyline conflict of interests. The established characters were beloved and iconic, but it was hard to keep squeezing in new characters as new toys were released. So... they decided to kill off all of those beloved characters in the theatrical film to make room for the new lineup. That uh... ended up being a controversial move.

I still find it wild that they thought that was the best way to replace their cast.  Can you imagine if they'd done that for MLP instead of quietly disappearing previous ponies?  "Hey look kids, it's your friends Firefly and Sparkler and Applejack running over to greet you--OH NO, MONSTERS JUST ATTACKED!  DEAD, THEY'RE ALL DEAD!  GRUESOMELY EXECUTED BEFORE YOUR VERY EEEEEYES!!!  So anyway, this is Magic Star, buy her toy."

*crying with laughter*

[Taffeta]

^Mind you, given all the horrible monster attacks throughout G1 I've seen some people speculate that stuff like that happened off-camera.

Well, the cartoon tried to be an encompassing canon for as long as it lasted, giving all the new ponies and playsets days in the sun throughout its run (although some only got one or two appearances because of how much there was to cover).

I think the cartoon was in important driving force for G1's sales, but you're right that G1 MLP wasn't dependent on it like Transformers was.

That's also probably regional. I am pretty sure aside the movie nothing MLP (except MAYBE RAMC in the early eighties) aired on TV in the UK until after G1 had ended (in 1995). (LITERALLY closing the gate after a bolting horse!) And then it was on Sky1, I think...which was a cable channel. We had to borrow videos from a friend as we didn't have cable then.

Well, yeah, it's a regional thing. You had said "The assumption G1 didn't have any overriding story canon is really true in America", and I was countering that in fact the cartoon tried to serve as one here (for as long as it lasted) as well as a sales-driving force.

I guess it depends on how much people think it was successful, and I admit, I can't judge that, as I didn't grow up there When you have a canon that spans eight plus years, one that jumps in and out with a handful of episodes sometimes seems a bit weak compared to for example, the many many backcard stories the US line put out.

The US did have backcards as early as year 2, and comprehensive ones compared to what the UK put out up until around 1988-9, when they adopted the US ones for a bit and then branched out into their own more detailed ones. From an outsider POV, I would have thought if the US had a canon, that was the more robust one, but since nobody ever mentions it, I kind of assume there isn't really a canon in the US.

But I also don't really like the G1 series that much xD. I like it more since FIM happened, but I never was a big fan, so maybe that bias is in there as well.

[ZeldaTheSwordsman]

I esteem the cartoon to be the primary canon for the US, at least through its run, because over its 1984-1987 run of 2 specials, a movie, and 61 eleven-minute episodes (not counting the 2-episode split versions of the specials) it incorporated as many of the ponies and playsets as possible into one big ongoing story and world, changing or overwriting backcard bios as it pleased (The Transformers did much the same). Cost, runtime, the need to advertise new product, and the sheer number of ponies limited how much each character could be fleshed out, of course, but it still managed to give life an personality to plenty of ponies and locales, and send them on adventures (like the comics did in the UK and elsewhere) before Griffin-Bacal capped it.

I tend to think of the backcard stories on either side of the pond as supplemental canon (at least where not contradicted by the larger story material); a set of brief "Who's who" stories for each pony.

[Leave a Whisper]

I esteem the cartoon to be the primary canon for the US, at least through its run, because through its 1984-1987 run of 2 specials, a movie, and 61 eleven-minute episodes it incorporated as many of the ponies and playsets as possible into one big ongoing story and world, changing or overwriting backcard bios as it pleased (The Transformers did much the same). Cost, runtime, the need to advertise new product, and the sheer number of ponies limited how much each character could be fleshed out, of course, but it still managed to give life an personality to plenty of ponies and locales, and send them on adventures (like the comics did in the UK and elsewhere) before Griffin-Bacal capped it.

Yeah.