Wingless Firefly? World's Smallest Pony and small blurb about Toys That Made Us.

[Cheshire_Raptor]

Oh no no no no! I didn't find anything insulting. Intriguing actually.

It's just a precedent that was set in the early community, I imagine. I do attribute it to Bronies because of the prevalence of the term in FiM and that there is the tendency to try to look at previous gens through the same lens as FiM in that the symbol/CM/RD must have some occupational/passion-linked significance (similarly to the G2/MLPT thing).
I did not read Taffeta's message as insulting towards you. I did not live through the influx of Bronies in the 2010's on the collecting community but I can imagine that the time period left a bit of an impression on many of the people who've been here for a while.
I hope I'm articulating myself correctly, ha.

[Taffeta]

Wait, wait, wait, wait!!!!!!

When did cutie mark become brony terminology? We just watched a show where they said the official term for the unique paintings on their butt as cutie mark. They didn't specify what generation that term is used for, so one can assume it's for ALL generations. I know very little about bronies and use that term.

No, we didn't. We watched a show that talked about the term being introduced for later generations.

Rump design appeared on G1 cards. Cutie mark on G3 cards. It's as simple as that. It's not an argument or an insult, it's a statement of provable fact. Those were the terms Hasbro used for each generation.

Before the CM term existed, the term rump mark did get discussion here in the community. CM only became a thing for G4, hence why it's considered brony terminology. I never said the bronies invented it - I said quite clearly it was official, but only post G3. It's mostly used by bronies.

Obviously if a generation predates a term then using it is anachronistic.

Also, the implication anyone in the community here would not talk to or trade with a person because they used CM is ridiculous. Nobody is going to do that. On the contrary, people are more likely to give you more information than you need because they assume you're still learning about older MLP, rather than the opposite.

The nub of this is that I am a detail geek, and I like facts.

I don't have a problem with you choosing what terms you use (although you will create misconceptions with people here, it can't be helped, it's just how things are). I don't jump on every post made by someone using CM, even if I don't like it. It's not that which prompted me to reply to you.

I had some problems with the tone of this remark:

I've always called them cutie marks, and those here who argue that is not at all what those are called can kiss it as it was called cutie marks in the show!

Aside the fact nobody has ever claimed CM didn't exist as a term, this isn't exactly respectful.

And even if TTTMU had stated 'this is now the official and only term for all pony markings ever' (which it didn't), I am not quite sure why you think that would matter or carry any weight in the collector discussion. It wasn't generally a treasure trove of hidden secrets. It was a general show for a general audience. That means it generalised. It can't supersede what was actually written on pony cards in a time before the CM term even existed.

The only thing I took from the show regarding markings was the surprising affirmation that rump design was apparently an American term, not a UK concept. Otherwise it told us nothing we didn't already know - that CM was invented later for a later iteration of the toy.

I don't think it even needs to go down to the way bronies behaved here after FIM first began. That's another subject altogether. But it may have something to do with why the term CM is so unsavoury to a lot of older gen collectors. I don't know. I just personally find it stupid. It doesn't trigger me as much as words like pegasister, everypony and the idea that Tales is G2. It's just a silly word. If you had said it in a general post about something I would've ignored it.

But I would definitely have read the 'so kiss it' comment as the work of a snarky brony, had you not made it clear in the rest of your post you collected G1.

That's how bronies generally speak to older pony collectors about their pre-g4 terms.

[Wardah]

I think I also prefer design to symbol because some of them have designs all over them instead of a single image on their flank.

[Cheshire_Raptor]

Wait, wait, wait, wait!!!!!!

When did cutie mark become brony terminology? We just watched a show where they said the official term for the unique paintings on their butt as cutie mark. They didn't specify what generation that term is used for, so one can assume it's for ALL generations. I know very little about bronies and use that term.

No, we didn't. We watched a show that talked about the term being introduced for later generations.

Rump design appeared on G1 cards. Cutie mark on G3 cards. It's as simple as that. It's not an argument or an insult, it's a statement of provable fact. Those were the terms Hasbro used for each generation.

Actually if you look at the show, starting at 35:29, they talk about how rump design was rebranded to cutie mark. And this was shortly after Lauren ruined revamped the line with Friendship is Magic. Which I do believe is the G4-ish line?
visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

visitors can't see pics , please register or login

Before the CM term existed, the term rump mark did get discussion here in the community. CM only became a thing for G4, hence why it's considered brony terminology. I never said the bronies invented it - I said quite clearly it was official, but only post G3. It's mostly used by bronies.

I collect G1 and early G3 ponies and have from day one called them cutie marks. Not sure where I picked it up, but I didn't know about G3 when I first started looking at G1 again.

Obviously if a generation predates a term then using it is anachronistic.

Also, the implication anyone in the community here would not talk to or trade with a person because they used CM is ridiculous. Nobody is going to do that. On the contrary, people are more likely to give you more information than you need because they assume you're still learning about older MLP, rather than the opposite.

I got some flack at first talking about cutie marks. Possibly not on here, haven't ran into anyone trying to flog me for using outdated terminology that I can remember.

The nub of this is that I am a detail geek, and I like facts.

Which is why I read your posts so carefully and tend to answer them the most. I get loads of information like this, even if it pisses people off.

I don't have a problem with you choosing what terms you use (although you will create misconceptions with people here, it can't be helped, it's just how things are). I don't jump on every post made by someone using CM, even if I don't like it. It's not that which prompted me to reply to you.

I had some problems with the tone of this remark:

I've always called them cutie marks, and those here who argue that is not at all what those are called can kiss it as it was called cutie marks in the show!

Aside the fact nobody has ever claimed CM didn't exist as a term, this isn't exactly respectful.

You do have me there. I have removed the word 'here' as I don't think it was any pony here who jumped all over me about the term, I just remember someone attacking me about it. And if I remember correctly of that attack, they were quite insistent that cutie mark was NEVER EVER EVER what they were known as any where.

And even if TTTMU had stated 'this is now the official and only term for all pony markings ever' (which it didn't), I am not quite sure why you think that would matter or carry any weight in the collector discussion. It wasn't generally a treasure trove of hidden secrets. It was a general show for a general audience. That means it generalised. It can't supersede what was actually written on pony cards in a time before the CM term even existed.

Okay so I get it wasn't a treasure trove of secrets for YOU. There were plenty in that I never knew before. Including who to err... thank for G4 and FiM and the current stuff. I don't have many ponies that still have cards. I do have some Easter G3 still Mint in Egg but they've been packed away for five years now so I can't run to them to read. 

The only thing I took from the show regarding markings was the surprising affirmation that rump design was apparently an American term, not a UK concept. Otherwise it told us nothing we didn't already know - that CM was invented later for a later iteration of the toy.

There's that WE again.

I don't think it even needs to go down to the way bronies behaved here after FIM first began. That's another subject altogether. But it may have something to do with why the term CM is so unsavoury to a lot of older gen collectors. I don't know. I just personally find it stupid. It doesn't trigger me as much as words like pegasister, everypony and the idea that Tales is G2. It's just a silly word. If you had said it in a general post about something I would've ignored it.

But I would definitely have read the 'so kiss it' comment as the work of a snarky brony, had you not made it clear in the rest of your post you collected G1.

That's how bronies generally speak to older pony collectors about their pre-g4 terms.

This is my full knowledge of Brony: A guy of any age who loves MLP.

From what I've read from you however, there is more to it, perhaps even just a generation of pony that's loved not MLP in general and that the guys sound pretty freaking immature. I admit fully the "Kiss it" remark was quite immature, but I really don't like FiM at all or the current ponies or the line since 2009 (not counting the retros of course) I believe.

I don't mean any disrespect by anything I say. Sounds like there's a lot of bad thoughts and feelings around the usage of cutie mark due to the group of people who use it the most. Which is sad. On all sorts of levels it's sad.

Sad that a group could make two words have such negativity for so many.

Sad that anyone who uses it gets lumped into that group even if they are completely clueless of what said group did and said.

I think like Wardah, I like the word design more than symbol, but we've already established to each their own and apparently one needs to stay on their toes when using terminology. 

[Safflower]

Forgive me for my formatting, I’m on mobile...

Here’s my thoughts: while I can’t control what terminology people use, cutie mark is incorrect for G1 and G2. It has been used since G3, so it’s good to use it for G3 and G4 (especially G4 as it is kind of the whole point of the series lol) but using it for previous gens is wrong. It would be a little like calling Brush n Grows Super Long Haired ponies because G3 uses that term. Like Taffeta said, it’s anachronistic. Personally, I do not like the term either

In regards to the snippet Cheshire posted, I do not think Hasbro was trying to say the official term for EVERYTHING was cutie mark? Hasbro, besides the retros which they don’t even produce themselves, and some merch which they also do not make, plus some social media mentions, has not referenced G1 and G2 or acknowledged the collector community. Their focus is right now on G4 (as it should probably be, it’s the current generation). I doubt they would care to tell the only niche community that doesn’t use the term cutie mark for everything it knows to stop it (unless I am misunderstanding your point Cheshire, which I very well could be). We collectors also have terms that aren’t official, so it wouldn’t matter anyway.

[Taffeta]

I think the clips show you're overinterpreting it, tbh. Toy producers create new things going forward, they don't rebrand going backwards for lines they already terminated. It would be like saying we can't talk about Dream Valley any more (it's equestria), Smooze is now green and Applejack only exists in the G4 iteration - anything before that is superseded because G4 rebranded her.

Not to Windwhistler you or anything, but that clearly isn't logical.

Once a toy is cancelled, it tends to fall into the hands of the collectors anyway, as the people who still care for it after the toy people have gone. Collectors tend to term things either by community consensus or through the original terms included on the official material. (so we still have Dream Valley and clumsy RaMC AJ, we still have purple gooky smooze and we still have rump designs, even though G4 doesn't have any of those).

The documentary also said G2 basically weren't ponies, G1 ended entirely in 1992, and RaMC was a bad idea. None of those things are true. And because CM first emerged on G3 boxes - the documentary suggesting it was a G4ish thing is also not true.

Fair enough on the infobot 'we' - I've been pony data gathering a stupidly long time and quite probably need poking with a stick sometimes because of it. Though I think most people in THIS space do know about terminology relating to gens, based on many conversations held here at the Arena over the years. And I've never seen anyone deny CM as a term. Just not as a term for G1.

As for what Tailrustedtealeaf alluded to, this space and other spaces were (and sometimes continue to be) polluted by a toxic brand of brony who have done their best to undermine and denigrate all older generations in their quest to prove their version of MLP is the only real valid one. This is not all g4 fans or even all bronies. But it happened, and it still happens - just not so much here any more.

Those experiences may have made the whole thing more contentious...in any case, most people don't use G4 terms for older pony stuff. I won't generalise their reasons, because they're all going to be different. But mine is simply because I think it's silly...

[Ragamuffin]

For what it's worth, I remember seeing the term "Cutie Marks (TM)" first in books rather than boxes. I think it was in the "Meet the Ponies" book, as well as the how to draw book released in 2003, maybe 2004. I can't remember them mentioning it that often... it was never in the specials or storybooks or anything. The first time it was used on a box might've been 2004's Friendship Ball ponies since they had the CM-related gimmicks (glitter and jewels).

[Taffeta]

For what it's worth, I remember seeing the term "Cutie Marks (TM)" first in books rather than boxes. I think it was in the "Meet the Ponies" book, as well as the how to draw book released in 2003, maybe 2004. I can't remember them mentioning it that often... it was never in the specials or storybooks or anything. The first time it was used on a box might've been 2004's Friendship Ball ponies since they had the CM-related gimmicks (glitter and jewels).

Yeah, it's definitely on the box of that set. I am not sure if it was on the first release of G3 because the European boxes were more obsessed with getting words in in as many languages as possible and sometimes failed to mention the name of the set, let alone anything about the gimmick...

It was out there but never really prominent collecting-wise because people just kind of carried on with their usual terminology. It only became a thing because of the G4 plotline, which is why I guess its been an explosion since then. The documentary didn't really give G3 much time or attention, but I feel like it was skilfully avoided to make it appear as though G4 was responsible for much more originality than it actually was. I mean, there was also no mention of how Dash and Pinkie were just harvested right from G3 for the show as well...

[Sunset]

I don’t know that I want to add anything to this discussion other than to say that the problem with the word “design” is that it is too general. As it is now, when someone says that they like a pony’s design they mean more than just the symbol.  They mean also the colors, pattern, theme.  The whole package.  It would be confusing to try to make “design” just mean the symbol/rump mark because people are not going to stop using its more general meaning.

[Cheshire_Raptor]

Rebranding happens quite a bit actually. Applejack was rebranded. And obviously so are all the retros. Rebranding is when a toy is re-released in new or slightly altered packaging attributed to a different franchise, or is released in packaging attributed to a different franchise than originally intended.

I am more than sure that I'm going to get some push back on this, but refusing to use new terminology is like using old definitions for words.

Example: the word meat used to refer to food in general — solid food of a variety of kinds not just animal flesh.

Some 500 years ago, flirting was flicking something away or flicking open a fan or otherwise making a brisk or jerky motion. Now it involves playing with people’s emotions sometimes it may feel like your heart is getting jerked around in the process.

Long ago, if you were naughty, you had naught or nothing. Then it came to mean evil or immoral, and now you are just badly behaved.

BUT before anyone puffs up, I do know that collecting is so much different than language. And in the end all rules are made by the collector not the toy makers or designers.

Are there any objections to me using RUMP DESIGN to mean the unique markings on MLP butts for ALL generations??

Cause having to call them something different for each generation is really really silly. Not to mention annoying as all heck.

The biggest problem with all of the objections to cutie mark, is that new collectors of any generation may not connect any old terminology (unless they are seriously obvious like rump design) to what you are talking about because they only know the new terminology.

You really carve out anyone who hasn't made collecting and information gathering about MLP their whole lives and set them aside and make them feel like outsiders. I certainly do and I've been collecting since 2010. You try and tell them that they can't call something by this term less they are branded a brony or are assumed to be something, insert whatever here. When really they just don't know any other terms. I never knew Rump Designs were a thing until I watched TTTMU. I've only even known cutie mark.

DO not forget that you cannot assume everyone knows what you do about anything. That really seems to be something many are forgetting. What you call a biscuit, someone else calls a cookie. Also keep in mind that not everyone shares your opinion. TO me G2s are not My Little Ponies. But neither are G4s. Not everyone has experienced the toxic collector so are taken back when it's applied to them, seemingly at random.

I don't know all of the types of ponies that were ever made, I know of a lot of them as they are on my wish list. I know many of the G3s but only by names and play sets as I am not aware of any types (by types I'm talking Twinkle Eyes, Tropical Ponies, Carousel Ponies - my favorites and still looking for some). And I know absolutely nothing about the newer generations created after 2009 or the G2s.

I have not experienced any "My generation is the only true generation, blah, blah, blah." types of collectors. That's just silly (interestingly silly used to refer to things worthy or blessed; from there it came to refer to the weak and vulnerable, and more recently to those who are foolish).

I'm not pointing fingers but am using the word 'you' as a generalize term.

If any of my replies sound sort of disconnected it's because I'm in Mexico and am constantly being pulled away and coming back to hopefully pick up the train of thought. Doesn't always work and I can end up scattered. Also, to all the US ponies, Happy Thanksgiving.

[Taffeta]

I might say biscuit in my real life but I would probably use cookie on here. I would certainly say mailing a package or going to the store in a discussion here, whereas in a conversation with my family I would say something totally different.

My point is that sometimes you have to understand the modes of communication used by the majority in order to make yourself best understood. I am saying this not to be cocky or knowitall, but as both a linguist/translator, and as a historian by trade in real life.

Symbol is far from an official term either, but it gets the job done without causing any drama or creating any contentious issues between collectors. A term that is not official for any generation sometimes serves as the best label for all of them in a mixed generation community, which this one is.  But as this discussion shows, not everyone likes that term. And not everyone uses it. And everyone seems pretty fine with that.

If new collectors did have a problem with it, this thread would be a good place to flag that. You keep saying you've collected since 2010, but actually around here that would not be considered particularly new. There are much, much more recent members at the Arena and I cannot recall that level of descriptor being raised by any as an issue.

Going back to the main point, though, whatever a collector chooses to call anything, there still exists one official set of terms and those do not change, no matter how emotive opinions get. Whether the term is popular or not, the term Cutie Mark exists. But it has only existed since Generation 3 in 2003, not before.

I think it's probably better to leave the discussion at this point, as a lot of personal opinions are getting conflated with things like terminology and history which seems impractical. At the end of the day everyone will choose what they think is best to describe their collection. Just personal choice should not be conflated with official data, as they're not the same thing.

[Safflower]

Edit - you beat me by a second Taf

In regards to the whole post above me, the information is out there if you look for it. By now, when G4 has been out for a decade, it’s assumed you know what bronies are. If you don’t, that’s fine, just learn, and if you want to, differentiate yourself from them - but no one is calling you one of them anymore. I don’t think anyone is attacking you or trying to make you feel othered. I’m sorry if you feel we are.

Also, I’m again on mobile, so forgive the formatting.

I am more than sure that I'm going to get some push back on this, but refusing to use new terminology is like using old definitions for words.

The point is that symbol is a general, unofficial term, not specified for any generation. It’s not “old terminology”. It can be used for pretty much every pony. (Using symbol because it’s a common one)

Are there any objections to me using RUMP DESIGN to mean the unique markings on MLP butts for ALL generations??

No??? Who’s forcing you to use and not use certain language? We can’t control you.

Cause having to call them something different for each generation is really really silly. Not to mention annoying as all heck.

I don’t find it annoying at all. Sprinkles has ducks for a symbol. Sunset Shimmer’s cutie mark is fittingly a sun. You don’t have to use different terms, either? I’ve also never met a collector who doesn’t know what those terms mean. Call them whatever you want, though. Again, no one is forcing you. You seem to have that idea.

DO not forget that you cannot assume everyone knows what you do about anything. That really seems to be something many are forgetting. What you call a biscuit, someone else calls a cookie.

Again, the information is readily available. It’s not our fault that you apparently didn’t look.

[Cheshire_Raptor]

I am more than sure that I'm going to get some push back on this, but refusing to use new terminology is like using old definitions for words.

The point is that symbol is a general, unofficial term, not specified for any generation. It’s not “old terminology”. It can be used for pretty much every pony. (Using symbol because it’s a common one)

We weren't talking about the word symbol. We were talking about the term cutie mark which is, as I am now understanding it are only for the newer generation.

Are there any objections to me using RUMP DESIGN to mean the unique markings on MLP butts for ALL generations??

No??? Who’s forcing you to use and not use certain language? We can’t control you.

Being told that if I use that term people are going to assume I am something I'm not and that I apparently don't want to be considered as is in fact controlling.

Cause having to call them something different for each generation is really really silly. Not to mention annoying as all heck.

I don’t find it annoying at all. Sprinkles has ducks for a symbol. Sunset Shimmer’s cutie mark is fittingly a sun. You don’t have to use different terms, either? I’ve also never met a collector who doesn’t know what those terms mean. Call them whatever you want, though. Again, no one is forcing you. You seem to have that idea.

So is Sprinkles G1? and what about Sunset Shimmer? G3? G4? I don't know either of these ponies off the top of my head they way a lot of you older collectors do. By older I am talking about the ones who have been doing this steadily for years. Unlike me who while I started in 2010, it wasn't until 2018 that got me back here and interested again.

DO not forget that you cannot assume everyone knows what you do about anything. That really seems to be something many are forgetting. What you call a biscuit, someone else calls a cookie.

Again, the information is readily available. It’s not our fault that you apparently didn’t look.

Okay, no room for new people. Got it. Moving on then.

Seriously. That is how that came across. If you didn't take the time to learn, what are you doing here? Uh. Here to learn, here to share the love of MLP and get news on retros, sorry I don't know every single thing already in my 9 years of casual collecting.  Did not see that in the rules when joining MLP Arena.

Look I am sorry I used cutie mark to describe a G1 rump design. Really I am, didn't know that was taboo. But hey, I'm learning.

[Safflower]

Meh, I don’t believe anyone is trying to be controlling? No one is assuming you are an ignorant harassing brony for using the term cutie mark. You’ve said you aren’t. You aren’t. Who’s claiming that?

With the “readily available information”, it’s not for scaring off new collectors. I’m sorry if it came across as that, and I can see how it could be (sorry for the wording), and the Arena is a great tool for learning pony stuff. If you want to learn, there are resources other than us. People put it out there for that very point It just seems you are attacking people for having more knowledge about MLP than you? When you say you don’t know things, you can ask about them, or go to My Little Wiki, etc. Instead you are pointing fingers at us “older collectors” (I’ve only been collecting for 3 years lol) and we certainly don’t expect you to know every little detail. Heck, no one does. Just... there are resources! You can learn! They’re great

[Taffeta]

I had a feeling you'd been here less time than that, Saf. And you are also not what I would call a new collector, either.

The irony is palpable.