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Author Topic: Watership Down Miniseries  (Read 5959 times)

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Offline Zapper

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Re: Watership Down Miniseries
« Reply #15 on: December 29, 2018, 05:21:48 AM »
Haven't seen it yet but whenever someone complains that "it makes no sense" to have female characters I want to watch it more  :P

Spoiler
In the book they saved the farm rabbits because they needed females to breed. How does a character sex swap to have more female pressence change any of that. I guess that's why the males fight over the female. To have that patriarchal stuff from the book in tact. I remember the first book really overlooked female characters and females were mostly praised for having lots of offspring while male rabbits were leaders and priests and stuff. In nature there is no male boss rabbit of a warren so you can't even claim realism. Wild bunnies live in colonies and social order changes due to health and age, not sex. There are always dominant females along with males. So it makes all the sense in the world there would be females along with males trying to get more females for the colony. Thank El-ahrairah because otherwise there would be incest. Have fun explaining that to kids :lol:

I'm just happy for more actresses getting voice roles in things that didn't intend them to be there. Can't voice little kids forever.

Looking forward to John Boyega! I innitially wanted to watch it just for Finn as a bun bun :lol:

Offline Noasar

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Re: Watership Down Miniseries
« Reply #16 on: December 29, 2018, 05:46:46 AM »
I agree Zapper. Having Strawberry as a female didn’t change the direction or purpose of the farm bunny plot much at all. In fact it gave it more urgency as the males were fighting over her. Olivia Coleman was brilliant. I also liked the fact that the Black Rabbit was a female. That character had much more depth than in the books and I liked the fact that the Black Rabbit wasn’t portrayed as some sort of harbinger of doom, just a natural part of life.

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Re: Watership Down Miniseries
« Reply #17 on: December 29, 2018, 06:05:19 AM »
One of the biggest problems with forced representation (of anything) in a place it isn't originally is that it can warp the overall message it's trying to convey. It rather befuddles me that it needs pointing out, but it isn't a positive role model of women or their place in a society that one of the key reasons to have a female at the down near the start is to present two males strutting their stuff and fighting over her like she's meat.

You can easily call the original book patriarchal, but it is a book of its time, so to do that is kind of anachronistic. The story was written for his daughters so at the time it wasn't seen in that light and the daughters certainly don't consider it that way either. What was acceptable then is not necessarily the same now, but changes have to be thought out properly. It's a bigger problem if the change is actually more patriarchal. And I'm going to stick with what I said before. No does = necessity is a better message, even if it means a cast dominated by male characters. It conveys the desperation of the down and the reason for the risks they take to get the does from the farm specifically in a better way...because without does there can be no warren. Message ultimately - does essential to future of warren, thus lives risked. Rather than, "guys can't control themselves and will kill each other over the one doe so lets get them some more distractions," which is what happens the moment you gender-change one of the original travellers.

 I don't think we need to reinforce the idea that girls are there to be fought over by men.

Representation at any cost is not representation. And there are better ways to inspire young women than to change the gender of a cartoon rabbit in order for male rabbits to fight over her like an object. In my humble opinion, that is patriarchy.
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Offline SpaceButtPonies

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Re: Watership Down Miniseries
« Reply #18 on: December 29, 2018, 09:24:04 AM »
Quote
Representation at any cost is not representation. And there are better ways to inspire young women than to change the gender of a cartoon rabbit in order for male rabbits to fight over her like an object. In my humble opinion, that is patriarchy.

I mean animals do that in the wild, they fight for females like meat. Kill each other if it comes down to it. If anything having the gender change just shows the viewer on why they really need doe in their warren.
« Last Edit: December 29, 2018, 09:26:23 AM by Pikashoes »
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Offline Annichen

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Re: Watership Down Miniseries
« Reply #19 on: December 30, 2018, 02:32:04 AM »
Oh, god yes ! I used to be a rabbit guard  for several years looking after wild bunnies here in Norway and have had a LOT of bunnies in my family over the years. Right now I only have two but we had 8 at the most and they all live inside the house. So..of course this classic have been watched a few times and we sat down and watched the new series too. The older animated film is rather traumatic but the series is less scary and didn't make me curl up in the sofa and cry.

Offline Noasar

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Re: Watership Down Miniseries
« Reply #20 on: December 30, 2018, 03:01:00 AM »
I don’t really read too much into things like this to be honest, with regards to female representation/patriarchy. I love the book, I’ve never seen any problems with how it represents female characters. There are a lot of underying themes and messages that can be analysed and interpreted in different ways, but at the end of the day it’s a book about rabbits, where (rightly or wrongly depending on how much you know about rabbit behaviour), the male rabbits are portrayed as being the ‘chiefs’ and the dominant figures in the book. That’s just the way it’s written and I am more than ok with that, it’s my favourite book! The female characters play very important role throughout the book, they’re not just written into it to be ‘breeding machines’.

Changing the gender of Strawberry really didn’t alter the plot that much which I think is the reason I don’t care. I think I was more bothered about Hazel pining after Clover, seemingly just because she was ‘pretty’ or be pitied her, as opposed to pairing up with Hyzenthlay in the book who is a much more interesting character. But either way I really enjoyed the series, although like most apadtations it will never be as good as the book!

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Re: Watership Down Miniseries
« Reply #21 on: December 30, 2018, 03:46:55 AM »
Hm...
Im a fan of the book and the animated film from back then, thats for sure. I saw the trailer and top be honest, I didnt really like the animation. I did not watch the series yet but I will do later this weekend :)


Ok, I watched it but to be honest... I didnt really like it. It was kinda ok but not really outstanding.




edit :

btw, I own a custom based on the first movie <3 She was made in 2009 by LarraChersan <3 Her name is The Blessing of El-ahrairah

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« Last Edit: December 30, 2018, 06:32:36 AM by Einhornbaby »

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Re: Watership Down Miniseries
« Reply #22 on: December 30, 2018, 09:32:46 AM »
That custom is awesome!
Now that Hyzenthlay is brought up, I'm reminded how bad I feel for her. I think I would have loved to see her end up with Hazel in the new series, although it was interesting seeing what they did with Clover.
The way I interpreted the change of Strawberry was just that they wanted a way to show that they needed does, or to show the urgency. I could see why people are upset for reasons outside of loyalty to the source material, but the change didn't irk me in that way.
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Offline Charmer

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Re: Watership Down Miniseries
« Reply #24 on: December 31, 2018, 02:46:31 AM »
I saw it with Aflame. I thought it was ok, though the animation didn't quite fit right...so you can do fur now? Does it matter? It's almost like they made it to show of how far we've come in the art of animation and realism. The way the rabbits hopped/moved looked odd to me. The story telling and acting was pretty good and I enjoyed that part. I think the original style and look were better though. I think just because we have improved technology
to create more realistic characters doesn't mean we should use it.
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Offline Leave a Whisper

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Re: Watership Down Miniseries
« Reply #25 on: December 31, 2018, 02:19:25 PM »
Gender swapping for the sake of muh representation  is dumb, they could have easily brought along a couple of does from the Sandleford warren as they did in the movie if they desperately needed another girl.

Wasn't Strawberry from that one warren who let themselves be protected by the farmer? In fact, didn't HE lose his mate to a snare? 

 The reason the rabbits risked themselves at the farm and at Efrafa, was because they needed mates, or their fledgling warren would die out within that generation. 

I don't see it as a patriarchal thing. They're rabbits for cryin out loud! Not everything needs to be revamped as a socio-political statement. 



Post Merge: December 31, 2018, 02:31:42 PM

Haven't seen it yet but whenever someone complains that "it makes no sense" to have female characters I want to watch it more  :P

Spoiler
In the book they saved the farm rabbits because they needed females to breed. How does a character sex swap to have more female pressence change any of that. I guess that's why the males fight over the female. To have that patriarchal stuff from the book in tact. I remember the first book really overlooked female characters and females were mostly praised for having lots of offspring while male rabbits were leaders and priests and stuff. In nature there is no male boss rabbit of a warren so you can't even claim realism. Wild bunnies live in colonies and social order changes due to health and age, not sex. There are always dominant females along with males. So it makes all the sense in the world there would be females along with males trying to get more females for the colony. Thank El-ahrairah because otherwise there would be incest. Have fun explaining that to kids :lol:

I'm just happy for more actresses getting voice roles in things that didn't intend them to be there. Can't voice little kids forever.

Looking forward to John Boyega! I innitially wanted to watch it just for Finn as a bun bun :lol:

Well er...there was the lion king. Even if they didn't come out and say it. I mean, a pride is made up of related females, their cubs and sometimes brothers can rule the pride so they were definitely keeping it all in the family... so to speak. Kovu was likely the first fresh blood they'd had in a while, being adopted and all.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2018, 02:34:02 PM by Leave a Whisper »
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Re: Watership Down Miniseries
« Reply #26 on: January 01, 2019, 12:09:03 AM »
True to my word, I watched it last night and first impression is I liked it, a lot. There was even tears at the end. I was not bothered by the gender swap and other alterations to the story. I think it was done well, and the animation, while looking weird at the beginning was easy to get used to. What bothered me was the rabbits looking more like hares and everyone looked too similar. Except Hazel and Bigwig I had troubble telling everyone apart.

Offline Kiwi

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Re: Watership Down Miniseries
« Reply #27 on: January 01, 2019, 05:41:01 PM »
We watched it today, and I enjoyed it for it's own portrayal. Each version has changed something from the original book, but each is enjoyable in their own right. The animation was a little weird, but you get used to it. I still cried at the end, but that was a given, especially with Fiver saying goodbye to Hazel at the end. I thought it was neat how them telling the story of Hazel at the end was right from the book itself, and the tribute to Richard Adams was sweet.
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Re: Watership Down Miniseries
« Reply #28 on: January 03, 2019, 10:28:20 AM »
Technically, in the original they had Violet as a female when they first set out. I've watched a few chunks of the new version but I don't have a streaming service to watch it all currently. So far I'm disappointed by the lack of the dog loose in the wood. How does Hazel remember to get the farm dog in the end?
« Last Edit: January 03, 2019, 10:31:14 AM by HavACrumpet452 »
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Re: Watership Down Miniseries
« Reply #29 on: January 05, 2019, 12:41:42 AM »
We watched it a few days ago and I guess I was pleasantly surprised - at least it made me want to read the book again! So maybe they did capture some of the spirit. :) 

I didn't like the animation style but I got used to it, at least enough to enjoy the story. The birds were rendered quite nicely but the mammals totally not. :D The dog and cat in particular were pretty awful looking, and in general, it bothers me when 3D animation attempts to look really realistic in some regards while all the movements etc. are completely unrealistic.

It's been years since I saw the original filmed version so I'm not sure how easy or difficult that is to follow. I guess four hours is better than 1,5 for capturing detail but still, I thought the miniseries could've been improved by slowing down here and there and adding some explanations, especially for the Lapine words and such. I was a bit disappointed by how Efrafa and its rabbits were presented - the practice of marking was not explained at all, for example, and basically all that you get out of it is "the officers are cruel and the Efrafans treat their does badly so they want to escape". Nothing about how and why Efrara has these peculiar rules and practices in place to begin with. Thoughout the series I got the impression that the audience are expected to know the story already. This seems to be the standard in this golden age of remakes, sequels and spinoffs!

There are quite a few other issues I could discuss (some of which have alread been brought up, such as Kehaar's accent) but these are quite insignificant in the end. Like Kiwi said, the version is enjoyable in its own right and I would recommend it, especially to someone who is familiar with the book and/or the 1978 film.
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