Anyone Else Kind Of Iffy About Continuing To Watch FIM?

[Taffeta]

The show didn't create the rabid fans, the rabid fans attached their identities and egos onto the show because apparently it's impossible to like (or dislike) a kids product without justifying it to hell and back , which can happen to any piece of entertainment but when it's about kids cartoons it becomes extra weird because we are not the target audience.

All true, but the fact remains they are able to do so because the concept of friendship in FIM lacks nuances. A lot of people also lack nuances. Humans are tribal and they flock together - especially against something that doesn't fit in.

I don't think  MLP is that controversial really outside of that section of bronies. I mean, it was very hostile back in G1/2 transition, but for the most part ponypeople were over the hating on other generations a long time ago.

You're right that fan is short for fanatic and the more sinister meaning of that term can apply with some of those conversations. There do seem to be a lot of hidden things in G4, but most of them are hidden throwbacks to earlier generations. I sometimes feel like some of the crazier bronies like to find these big adult scary issues and labels in the show because if they do that they can also sever it from these connections to past generations. It's easier to make G4 subversive than it is to accept that it has influences from the generations being reviled and mocked. Or they just don't know about those links and so have to find a way to explain it to themselves.

But to get back on topic, the way people choose to interpret the show is their own prerogative. I think the decision to stop watching the show depends on how much you can connect to it. I mean, I love to see threads and connections between characters and plot development and I am the kind of geek who enjoys character building scenes more than big dramatic events. For me FIM's lack of evolution of character bonds from episode to episode is probably the biggest issue I had (and that has nothing to do with subversive bronies). I have seen odd episodes from later series and I didn't get confused about what was going on. That's great for people who want to just dip in, but if there's no evolution from season 1 to season whatever Discord is in, then there's no real impetus to go back and find out what you've missed.

I have to admit having a similar problem with the original G1 series. I love the Jem series, produced at the same time, but that's mostly because the characters that start the first episode are not the same 65 episodes later. You can't say that about MLP G1 or FIM. But you can say it about Equestria Girls, because both Sunset Shimmer and SciTwi evolve from a starting point to a finishing point and the others provide a supporting cast for that process.

I wonder if Starlight Glimmer was introduced to try and change that a bit, but it didn't work? I haven't seen any episodes with her in so I can't be sure...

[Zapper]

I wonder if Starlight Glimmer was introduced to try and change that a bit, but it didn't work? I haven't seen any episodes with her in so I can't be sure...

As someone who has seen most of the episodes and is biased towards Starlight: Starlight is a reformed antagonist who in my opinion works in favor of the show.

I think the ponies did change in FiM, just not all of them because the status quo had to be maintained. Their crashing personalities are good for teaching lessons and it's up to the writer if a lesson is good or bad (the aforementioned Rainbow trying to trade Fluttershy's services for a book. Selling your friends into slavery is not ok, kids. Gotta learn that LOL)

Plus, while more and more cartoons do a storyline that leads to the end of the show, most shows don't lend themselves to that too well because the company doesn't want the toyseller to go away (shows like Gravity Falls or Last Airbender weren't solely created to sell merch so they got to have an ongoing plot).

In fairness, FiM was never meant to last 9 seasons and the changes that happened did often help the show grow up with its audience and still get kids hooked. From "I learned a lesson today, Mrs Teacher" to the ponies becoming mentors of their own, going outside of Equestria and meeting new characters.

Starlight, of course, changed a lot because she had to be reformed, but she was conceived as an anti-Twilight, so she had to keep some of those character traits. She is an example of a character who tries to actively learn the lessons of the show and is already used to act like a mentor as well (just messing up more than the others while doing so). Within two seasons she patched up an old friendship and became more of Twilight's assistant other than her student. Spike moved on from assistant to ambassador or something.
Discord sold the ponies out time and time again until new writers came in and wrote him into a different direction and he is more of a sidekick now and befriended the boys to get him away from Fluttershy. So I don't agree that the show resets each season. It's just following a formula:

Season start = fantasy two-parter,
Slice of Life stuff,
Fantasy two-parter = end of season

EqG was always the fantasy two-parter in movie form and now with the web show it's just Slice of Life again. I don't see a big difference in quality, just the audience is (supposed to be) different. Sunset changed from a bad girl to Twilight 2.0 and SciFy changed from Fluttershy to Twilight with Starlight's passion for experiments.
And now none of them get development either because the franchise got stuck in its tracks and will probably disappear together with G4 because Hasbro has a lot more girl properties now.

The villains get defeated or reformed in FiM because they couldn't seem to marry that good vs evil idea to the Slice of Life stuff. So they let the reformed villains mess up once in a while to create new problems and I honestly enjoy that.

But if the leaks are true they are working on that issue for the next gen so stay tuned

[Rainbow Dash]

I crunch numbers.  It's a thing I do, so bear with me.  I've quantified this data by my own (biased) scale of enjoyment.  I have a 1-10 star ranking scale for the episodes.  By season:

Season:   1 2  3  4  5  6  7
10 stars: 4  2  1  1  0  2  0
9 stars:   5  6  2  0  2  3  2
8 stars:   3  1  0  7  5  3  6
7 stars:   2  0  3  2  9  6  6
6 stars:   2  2  1  1  2  5  5
5 stars:   0  4  2  6  3  1  1
4 stars:   3  4  3  4  2  3  2
3 stars:   3  0  0  3  0  1  2
2 stars:   1  3  0  1  0  0  2
1 stars:   3  4  1  1  3  2  0


My own take is one that echoes many of the complaints above, and that's that the series is stagnating (and has been since Twilight's ascension; which remains the point where the series jumped the shark in my opinion).  The early seasons had more 'hits' but they also had more 'misses' when it comes to my enjoyment of the episodes.  This most recent season had no episodes I despised enough to give only a one-star ranking, but it also had none I loved enough to give ten stars to.  Season 6 was a surprising uptick for me.  Buckball Season in particular strikes me as one of the best episodes of the entire series.

Later seasons are doing better in my rankings because they're so vanilla fewer new episodes are going into my 'hate it' territory).  That mediocrity is enough to make season 6 my favorite season by overall score.  But I don't like season 6 enough to give it my overall favorite season.  That honor goes to season 1.

The thing that bugged me most about season 7 is they brought back Iron Will, which is something I've been worried about since his first episode way back in season 2.  His episode would have been better served with the Flim Flam brothers as the villains, in all honesty.  I like Iron Will - he was a motivational speaker who believed in himself just a little too much.  And when Fluttershy said 'no' he left.  No scheming to get revenge.  No 'I'll get you next time, Gadget!'  He just left.  Now he's another money-grubbing get-rich-quick schemer like the already existing Flim Flam brothers.  Sigh.

[TJgamer]

It's interesting how some of you see Equestria Girls as superior do to it being more based on real life, whereas FiM itself is trying to be more of an idealistic view of friendship. Sunset Shimmer is very well loved by many fans, both young and old, for a reason.

The thing that bugged me most about season 7 is they brought back Iron Will, which is something I've been worried about since his first episode way back in season 2.  His episode would have been better served with the Flim Flam brothers as the villains, in all honesty.  I like Iron Will - he was a motivational speaker who believed in himself just a little too much.  And when Fluttershy said 'no' he left.  No scheming to get revenge.  No 'I'll get you next time, Gadget!'  He just left.  Now he's another money-grubbing get-rich-quick schemer like the already existing Flim Flam brothers.  Sigh.

Ironically Iron Will was probably one of the more nuanced antagonists of the show, which made him very refreshing to watch. He may seem like just a tough brute who always gets his way, but he is willing to be reasonable when Fluttershy explained herself. The direction they took him with Once Upon a Zeppelin may have not been the wisest decision, but I'll take that over Flim and Flam any day!   

[Al-1701]

The problem is it's idealized to the point of being impossible to obtain and a bad message for children.  Think of all the uproar on characters on television having perfect bodies.  That's what this is only with an idea, and that's just as toxic.  The relationship between the Mane 6 is unhealthy.  The Mane 6 as individuals are unhealthy.  If this a random cartoon, we'd just chalk it up to being random cartoon fun.  However, this show continues to present itself as the instruction manual on friendship and these six are guides for little kids.

[Artemesia's Garden]

I'm also in the camp that loved Season 1 and 2 and then started going off it a bit by season 3. It hasn't gone how I would have hoped. I'm a fantasy/sci fi fan at the end of the day and I like rich environments. I like strong concepts, continuity and long story arcs. I am not the target market 

I got to the beginning of s5, I think, and stopped watching. I haven't seen anything for about two/three years, and I'm not fussed. It's gotten very meh.

If you want other cartoon recommendations, I hear Guillermo del Toro's Trollhunters is really good.

Cool, thank you will check it out!

The relationship between the Mane 6 is unhealthy.  The Mane 6 as individuals are unhealthy.  If this a random cartoon, we'd just chalk it up to being random cartoon fun.  However, this show continues to present itself as the instruction manual on friendship and these six are guides for little kids.

Excellent, let's open this can of worms because I'm all ears! Can you expand a bit?

[Al-1701]

Let's take the case of Fluttershy, especially in "Fluttershy Leans In".  I remember this poster of destructive behaviors where one of them is someone swinging around a bat labeled "My Way" with two people flat on the ground labeled "Other Opinions" and "Another Way".  I think this sums up Fluttershy's behavior in this episode.  She gives vague instructions that don't make any sense, and then leaves the ponies to their own devices. Yet, she is in the right, and the designers are in the wrong.  She doesn't even try to work with them.

This is because they solved one problem with Fluttershy and introduced another.  She gone from being completely submissive to assertive to the point of being unreasonable.  This episode would have been a chance for her to learn to compromise and accept others opinions and ideas without completely giving in, but that would mean her being a nuanced character and they wouldn't be able to bring in a character from one of the worst episodes of Season 5.

Rainbow Dash is Rainbow Dash.  She's a self-absorbed, micro-brained jock who only cares about herself with zero empathy towards others.  She'll destroy others' property or cause them physical harm for her own amusement.  Equestria's entire environment can be thrown out of wack so that she doesn't have to spend a few months without her pet.  And yet, beyond the minor slaps on the pastern she gets in episode, she has gotten everything she wants and is idolized as if she's some kind of role model.

Pinkie Pie has dissolved into the walking gag machine where everything she does is supposed to be funny for the audience.  Case in point: even though she told Rainbow Dash that pulling pranks on Fluttershy is a big no-no (something Rainbow Dash would do anyway), Pinkie Pie gleefully reduces her to tears on multiple occasions two episodes after she had supposedly learned empathy to earn her key item.  And it's only gotten worse from there.

I already said Twilight Sparkle doesn't have the moral fortitude to decide indentured servitude is wrong.  She has never worked as a princess, and Celestia's speech about how she is deserving of the title ring emptier and emptier with each season.

Applejack is painfully stupid and stubborn.  She's supposed to be this idealized rural character, but she comes off as boring at best and patronizing at worst.

How Rarity is a successful mare of business is beyond me.  Kids looking to get into the field of fashion or any kind of business should avoid the moves Rarity makes at all costs.

Then there is the relationship.  As I had said, everyone has to be pro-Mane 6.  They can't have any friends who don't also like the others.  And it's always the other character's fault and never the Mane 6.  They must be converted (like Discord and Trixie) or cast out.  They're an incredibly insulated clique that rarely welcomes others.  Their friendship also seems to trump all other ambitions and responsibilities.

That is what is unhealthy about them.

[Strawberry Swirl]

It's been a bigger and bigger hit-and-miss as the seasons have gone on. I still enjoy the characters a lot but as far as the show itself goes I'm kind of over it. There have been later episodes I've enjoyed, even ones I've enjoyed a lot but I think now I'm pretty much ready to drop it.

[Ponyfan]

FIM has always been hit or miss for me. There are episodes I enjoy and can watch repeatedly without getting tired of them and some that I have either neither finished or don't want to rewatch. I have never been able to get through the episode with Rarity and the Diamond Dogs or the one where Daring Do and her adventures were established as being real.

I think Starlight is supposed to be the work in progress character. She is trying to learn but often makes mistakes. I don't like the way she went back to mind control spells so easily to get what she wanted (when she tried to do several friendship lessons at once) and I've always felt that the Mane 6 accepted her a little too quickly after she treid to destroy Equestria.  I like how she kept doubting herself in the Season 6 finale when the fate of Equestria was in her hooves.


I do like Thorax and feel he has shown a lot of character development.  Even after defeating Queen Chrysalis, he struggles with being a leader and how to handle those that don't agree with him.

I sill watch FIM if I find the episode premise interesting enough. If not I just watch something else instead.


Ponyfan

[Artemesia's Garden]

I agree, its a shame it doesn't hang together better in terms of ethics because that is kinda what it was meant to be about. Southpark is the greatest when it comes to ethics :-) but definitely not a family show.

[StarSwirl05]

TBH, I haven't really enjoyed the show since Season 2. I've mostly been watching the show to see what happens next. Lately, it's been one disappointment after another and I haven't found that many enjoyable eps.

[Bekuno]

I don't enjoy it like I used to, and I'm not entirely happy in the direction the show has gone, but I'm not going to stop watching it. I really only care about the two-part episodes and episodes that are important to the story (like the one about Applejack's parents). I watched all the season 8 leaked episodes, and some of them are important like the episode I just mentioned. I completely understand why many people are no longer interested in FIM.

[Taffeta]

I wonder if Starlight Glimmer was introduced to try and change that a bit, but it didn't work? I haven't seen any episodes with her in so I can't be sure...

As someone who has seen most of the episodes and is biased towards Starlight: Starlight is a reformed antagonist who in my opinion works in favor of the show.

From everything that people say about her role in the show on here, it sounds like she was an attempt to bring some of the Sunset Shimmer element into FIM, with a reformed protagonist who could be seen 'learning' about friendship.

@Al - if Sunset and SciTwi were that repetitive and predictable, I wouldn't watch EQG. The problem EQG does have is that the actual remainder of mane six don't change much at all over the course of the stories. Just, because they're trying to help first SUnset and then SciTwi, they become relevant to that cause. EQG itself is very predictable and repetitive. It's only the character nuances driving Sunset and SciTwi that make it enjoyable for me...the student becomes the teacher, but Sunset is never Twilight, and SciTwi is never Fluttershy.

I can't comment on the others since my knowledge of FIM is so limited.

The discussion about friendship and all or nothing also takes me back again to Jem and the friendship of Kimber and Stormer. It appears in one episode, and is never referenced again, but there's an active difference in these characters after that happens compared with before. That's both in terms of how they act in their respective bands and how others interact with them. So even though it's not constantly thrown in the faces of the audience, it still matters. I don't know if FIM has done that. I feel that EQG has done that, because there's a past and a future involved in the present of the stories of Sunset and SciTwi. I think Pinkie and co are largely irrelevant, and so are most of the other supporting characters. But because Sunset and SciTwi change each episode we see them (and now in the Canterlot High, Starlight Glimmer has also appeared), there's some kind of continuity that suggests cause and effect...action and consequence. Sunset is still feared at Canterlot High in Rainbow Rocks, and Adagio and company try to play on that fact. It hasn't all been forgotten, either by Sunset or the others around her. Consequently Sunset ultimately uses that experience to help counsel SciTwi. Sunset isn't like Twilight because Twilight has no such negative experience to compare. Sunset has failed, has done bad things, and has been hated for it. Because of that, she can help SciTwi. Twilight herself would not be able to do that.

And even though the EQG now have special powers, they still don't really know how to use them properly, which is also a learning curve.

[Dragonflitter]

I am still enjoying the show as much as I did when it started. In fact, I think the last two seasons are some of the strongest episodes of the series. I don't think every ep is great, of course, but I like where they're going with the overarching storyline.

When it was over, I thought to myself "We'd never get that kind of nuance from Friendship is Magic.  No one is ever allowed to be friends with anyone who isn't pro-Mane 6 and those that aren't converted must be ridden out of town on a rail."

The thing about a show that is seven seasons long, is that you're going to be able to find plenty of examples that support a sweeping generalization like this, but also that there's plenty of examples that prove the opposite, if you bother to look. For example, did you forget about the episode where Twilight sent Starlight out to make her own friend and she makes friends with Trixie, whom Twilight doesn't like (and the feeling is mutual?). The entire point of that episode is that your friends are sometimes going to be friends with people who you don't like, and that you have to accept that. That's just as nuanced as the lesson you cited in the Tales ep.

There's also the lesson where Trixie spends the day ticking Starlight off, and she holds it all in until her magic explodes. At what point do you put up with your friends' little annoyances and let it go by without saying anything, and where do you draw the line and bring it up with them? The lessons about friendship in this show are not all rainbows and sparkles and everything is perfectly fine by the end of the episode. A lot of the morals of this show actually are complex and nuanced, and tackle real-life situations that even I, as an adult introvert, find thought-provoking.

Yes, for every complex and interesting ep there's a bland "let's all be friends and solve this problem in a contrived way!" episode in the lineup as well, or a stupid action or parody ep that doesn't require any thought to follow. But that doesn't mean the show is never complex, or that they aren't trying. It just means, that with over 150 episodes at this point, not all themes and morals are going to speak to every viewer.

[Jorgito93]

The thing about a show that is seven seasons long, is that you're going to be able to find plenty of examples that support a sweeping generalization like this, but also that there's plenty of examples that prove the opposite, if you bother to look. For example, did you forget about the episode where Twilight sent Starlight out to make her own friend and she makes friends with Trixie, whom Twilight doesn't like (and the feeling is mutual?). The entire point of that episode is that your friends are sometimes going to be friends with people who you don't like, and that you have to accept that. That's just as nuanced as the lesson you cited in the Tales ep.

I totally agree, i'd say it does it even better because Teddy is not here (seriously, Tales trying to redeem him while showing him only being a total jerk just because he has a teddy bear is on par with FiM's tendancy to reform every bad guy.It bothers me even more tbh).The message is good in both episodes, but the context makes it work better for me in FiM