The definition of "mainstream"...

[Safflower]

Well, personally I think the "nirvana" label is silly and I don't use it.  No offense to those who do, but to me it makes no sense at all.  Some of the "nirvanas" are common (Italian Peachy), some are rare. So rarity alone is not a determining factor. Raindrop and Nightlight were made in Hong Kong (or China, can't remember) and are supposedly still nirvanas because they were only released in a few countries.  But none of the US-exclusive Hong Kong / China ponies like Hollywood are considered nirvanas, because . . . ?  Then the Thailand Fancy Pants Babies are NOT counted as nirvanas, but the Thailand Mountain Boys are--because one is common and the other isn't?  But Italian Peachy is common too, lol.  Yeah, I will never call any of my ponies 'nirvanas.'

Someone told me they were called nirvanas, because it was heavenly to own them. 

That is probably the sweetest definition I have ever heard

[Taffeta]

Well, personally I think the "nirvana" label is silly and I don't use it.  No offense to those who do, but to me it makes no sense at all.  Some of the "nirvanas" are common (Italian Peachy), some are rare. So rarity alone is not a determining factor. Raindrop and Nightlight were made in Hong Kong (or China, can't remember) and are supposedly still nirvanas because they were only released in a few countries.  But none of the US-exclusive Hong Kong / China ponies like Hollywood are considered nirvanas, because . . . ?  Then the Thailand Fancy Pants Babies are NOT counted as nirvanas, but the Thailand Mountain Boys are--because one is common and the other isn't?  But Italian Peachy is common too, lol.  Yeah, I will never call any of my ponies 'nirvanas.'

Someone told me they were called nirvanas, because it was heavenly to own them. 

If you had to study Japanese war tales, and saw the things that my warriors did in the name of attaining rebirth in the pure land "Nirvana" ...

Though a lot of those things were done on horseback, they also often involved...erm...violent things.

 I confess I also now expect to see Amida appearing in a mass of purple clouds when anyone mentions Nirvana.

Then again, when you think about what the name Sundance really means, perhaps it's not so inappropriate after all...

[Leave a Whisper]

I thought Nirvana was to attain the highest form of enlightenment?  Yes to the Sundance. ouch and no thanks! We humans sure have had some interesting ways to express our spirituality.

[Taffeta]

I thought Nirvana was to attain the highest form of enlightenment?

In theory...

But try telling that to a bunch of very aggressive Japanese mediaeval warriors.

[Leave a Whisper]

I thought Nirvana was to attain the highest form of enlightenment?

In theory...

But try telling that to a bunch of very aggressive Japanese mediaeval warriors.

True.

[Taffeta]

I thought Nirvana was to attain the highest form of enlightenment?

In theory...

But try telling that to a bunch of very aggressive Japanese mediaeval warriors.

True.

And now the mainstream pony thread has gone from pony classification to forms of ritual related torture...

Erm, sorry mods.

Back on topic O.o.

So maybe LM is actually the one that hit it on the head by identifying the problems with that Nirvana categorisation. Perhaps because that's so blurry, this is so blurry, and it's all kind of imploded since then. Though it does concern me that some of the old rumours I thought had been stamped out of the community long ago are slowly creeping back in. It's a short step from that to the problems of the past and that's a concern to me because the information wasn't available then but it is now and we could do much more with it.

Though in credit to the Wiki, the people there work really hard to give a very cross-cultural feel to the information they include, with MIP images, and stuff. And now with Chrissytree's accessory site variations there are going to become more well known, which is awesome. I think we can still do a lot with this, but it really for me does start with something as little as just remembering ponies when it comes to poll choices...what is the old saying?

Out of sight, out of mind?

[Stormness_1]

As someone who is in Australia, this is important, too! Identifying US exclusives, and what ponies actually are available in what places naturally is super important to people that are outside the major distribution centres. Obviously there's the mail orders, but there were plenty of other supposedly common US ponies that I've found it harder to find over here, only to realise they probably weren't released here at all, and that I'd have to go to overseas sellers for. And sometimes I picked up those ponies super cheap, which to me was weird, because I'd never seen one in the wild before, but over there they were everywhere. I'd have paid a mint, but US sellers were getting peanuts, not realising it wasn't available anywhere but there! I'm actually encountering this with other things as well. Things considered plain and common in the US are getting hard to find, because the people who got them assign no value, and therefore don't sell them, it drives me crazy!

[lunar_scythe]

I tend to define ponies by either where they were made or where they were sold, so I have started to refer to them in general as "made in hong kong/china", "not made in HK/china", US, Euro, and varients

I have to admit, I tend to forget ones like CP AJ and Bowtie, or I call them varients because they came out after the US shy pose ones, I think the year after?

[glitterball]

As a lover of G1, living in the UK, it was only last year (when I joined the Arena) that I learned about how different ponies were sold in different countries, so if you had asked me last year what a mainstream pony was I would have listed all the UK ones that I had received in my childhood; discovering that Gypsy + Snowflake were not sold in the US was an eye-opener; discovering that my beloved Honeycomb was instead sold as "Surprise" with no glittery bees, was also an "oh really?!" moment! 

Furthermore, mail-order exclusives, US-only flutter ponies, I had no idea! I used to buy the comic and just assumed that certain pony characters had not made it to the toy-production stage; I remembered how hard it was for my Dad to find Cotton Candy, so ponies (for me, anyway) were always difficult to find + buy, thus extra-special to actually finally own, so I was quite satisfied with my limited herd and  Dream Castle/Majesty as she was a popular character in the stories. 

[Taffeta]

Thank you for adding your thoughts!! It is comforting to know other people think about this too. It has long been an intention of mine to produce a checklist to deal with ponies in context with their global releases rather than the outdated system mostly used at the moment, but I realised that even if I did, it being hidden away on my website makes it not mainstream by association, because of this idea that non US is the periphery. I have wondered how to deal with that for a while. It makes no sense that my site is the only place that states US exclusives because it is a UK site but really it does it because nowhere else does and it ought to be better than that. While I would love everybody to use my site realistically what I really want is to make sure the information is being made available for everyone.

I also would love to have a better understanding of Australia and NZ...Malaysia and Singapore...and also all the different European releases. My information on these is full of holes and so the Scrapbook probably makes tons of wrong assumptions because of this.

I guess I want to understand more about mainstream in different countries.

[BabyIceCrystal]

Um.
To go along with what you're saying, just pointing out, if I may add...

Canada is not part of the US.

We get totally forgotten because everyone assumes we get the exact same releases as them. But in reality, saying "mainstream" ponies are US/Canada is also inaccurate. I've thought about a similar sort of thing as what you're saying. It's frustrating sometimes that no one seems to realize that Hasbro does not sell ponies in Canada. Hasbro Canada does, different company. Just like there are different Hasbros set up in other areas of the world as well. And just like those other Hasbros, Hasbro Canada may or may not pick up the rights to the various sets of ponies available. The difference between Canada (and other countries) plight and the UK's is that, unlike Hasbro UK, Hasbro Canada does not make their own sets of ponies. So we don't have anything like Mountain Boys to draw attention to the fact that our market is different too.

What's frustrating is the lack of information I have as a collector in Canada. It's exactly what Stormness said. I don't know what wasn't available here in G1. I don't know if there's things that I won't run across in thrift (charity) stores that I should be focusing on finding online. I have to just assume that my childhood ponies were the ones I find listed as 'US' now. (How's that for misplaced childhood?) But I have found things that are listed as 'international' (meaning European) in thrift stores enough times that I really question it. In the last few months I've found three supposedly European G2s. I can't know if these were presents from relatives in Europe that were sent here, or if they were store-bought here. I remember G2 coming out, being upset that they weren't like G1 and ever after not keeping track of them in stores. I remember seeing the 'US' ones collecting dust on shelves for a long time, but I didn't note if there were also 'European' ones in later years because I wasn't watching. Now, through the years, I have run across almost the same number of 'European' G2s (6) in my thrift stores as I've found 'US' G2s (7). But a sample size of just-me is nowhere near enough to draw any actual conclusions. Maybe I just have freakish luck and keep getting ponies that were originally imports? But the thing is, if Hasbro Canada could get pony rights from Hasbro US, couldn't they also have got them from Hasbro UK?

Way back when I was confused because when I went to look up a pony I'd found, she was listed as a German variant. This was purple haired Pretty Beat and at the time I found mine, there weren't enough of them in the pony community to say for sure about her. She'd only been found in Germany. The community informed me that mine had clearly been brought here from Germany because everyone knows that Canada gets the same ponies as the US. Since then, of course, she's been found elsewhere and is now thought of as European. But.... Canada is elsewhere isn't it?  Why was mine brushed off and not the other ones that were discovered outside of Germany? Why was that bit of pony knowledge amended for them but not Canada? I couldn't make a big deal about it because of course it's absolutely true that maybe she was brought here by some kid moving to Canada. Maybe the fact that I've found three 'rare' blue-heart Dazzleglows and no 'common' pink-heart ones is just more of my weird pony luck. I've never actually thought to ask any of the other Canadian collectors if they've found any pink-heart Dazzleglows in store because everyone knows that Canada gets the same ponies as the US.

I remember in childhood seeing some of the 'US' mail order ponies in brochures. So I know for sure we got at least some of them. But I know we didn't get the Christmas baby because she was through Rice Krispies (even though we do have Rice Krispies, the send-aways are not the same), and yet she's listed as 'US mail order'. We certainly didn't get the Valentines babies because I'd never heard of the chain that they came from before. So what does that mean about the Chuck-E-Cheese baby? We had Chuck-E-Cheese restaurants up here, but the prizes weren't necessarily the same as the US ones. Would Chuck-E-Cheeses in Canada have to miss out on it because Hasbro Canada didn't have them, or would they be allowed to bring up ones from Hasbro US as an American chain? Or did Hasbro Canada order that one? Did we get her or not? I don't know because everyone just assumes that Canada gets the same ponies as the US. And if one turns up in a thrift up here how do we know it didn't come from the States?

You see, packaging law in Canada states that everything written on them must also be translated in French. It doesn't specify what else or where the packaging must come from, so I have seen plenty of European goods sold here legally. But most American packaging only has English, so it is illegal for them to just ship up stock and sell it here. Anything American companies want to sell in their stores in Canada have to be repackaged to include French. (This is a small part of why Target failed so dramatically. They didn't figure in all that extra cost when they promised to sell everything for US prices.) For things that get small runs (like, for example, mail orders), it's often not worth the extra cost to repackage and we just lose out. In G3 we got mixed results. Canadian TRUs carried their exclusive birthstone set, but not their exclusive birthflower set. We only had Target a short time here during G4, so we didn't get the early and late Target sets, but did get the middle stuff. Strangely, a certain Canadian chain was getting the rights to a few early Target exclusives before we had Target here and they saw a limited, non-Target release. But those are still identified as having been Target exclusives online. Canada didn't count. We were the first place in the world that certain G3 Breezies showed up, so they were called Canadian exclusives for a short period.... until they appeared in Europe and they became 'European' exclusives. But look, there it is again! We had them in Canada. They aren't European exclusives. And yet..... Everyone knows that Canada gets the same ponies as the US. And hey, did Australia get those Breezies? Did Asia? I don't know because they're labelled 'European' exclusives.

The kicker is that G3 and G4 happened when the internet meant that the knowledge was out there. Yes, Canada did have those Breezies. They weren't easy to find (I never saw them in stores). This brings two things to mind: One, what don't we know about Canadian distribution from the time before collectors were sharing all this knowledge as releases happened? If Canada had 'European' G3s, how do we know for sure we didn't get 'European' G2 and G1? Like, say, purple haired Pretty Beat? And two, what Taffeta says is absolutely true, the community is still skewing things in a US-centric way, despite knowing full well otherwise. Sites that list things as 'UK', 'European', or 'International' actually mean 'outside the US' without any regard as to where it really was. 'Mainstream' actually means 'available in the US'.

Sorry. I think I beat your wall of text length... 

[Taffeta]

No, your wall of text was amazing. I shall doubtless respond with a wall of my own, since it's been a long day and I'm liable to be incoherent. But what you said was important and really true. I'm glad that someone from Canada came in on this and I admit, I'm guilty of this one as well. The problem I have being in the UK is that I have genuinely no idea what was or wasn't in Canada. And I feel in this quandary where if I say US only, I feel people think I don't know Canada is not the US, but if I say US/Canada, am I making an unfair assumption?

But you made me think of something I hadn't thought about before.

Australian/NZ pony info is still a bit hazy but the bits and pieces I think I know suggests a mixture of what we think of as "US" ponies and what we think of as "European" ponies. Particularly the later years there are ponies like the Bedtime newborns, although I seem to remember they had their own release style thing there. But then Australia had some things that we didn't have. I don't know if any Australians had Flutterbye from new as a child on a European card. I know someone who has one who says she got it from Australia, but the card is marked UK. Those cards appeared in Scandinavia and in South Africa according to collector testimony in those places. They are in English, but marked UK and never sold here at all.

The relationship with Scandinavia and UK cards is a complete mystery except that it must relate to some kind of trading arrangement and the fact cards in Scandinavia in the native languages are not that common...but with Australia and New Zealand, and South Africa there is another trading relationship involved. I'm also aware that Malaysia and Singapore had some items. Someone here told me a while back they had Mountain Boys in Malaysia when she was there as a kid because she had one. These countries also fit into that trading bloc. Of course, I mean the Commonwealth. This is a trade relationship Canada has with these countries that America doesn't.

Another interesting tidbit for you. With G4, we've been turning up stock in the last couple of years here which are marked as coming from hasbro Canada. The UK are receiving your end of line stuff. Not the American end of line stuff. The Canadian end of line stuff. So that trade relationship works that way around. Why could it not have done in the past?

And as for the languages and the cards and releases, there's so much complexity there. It's one of the reasons I love cards so much. There is such a lot you can learn from them and what they say, what they show, etc. Not all mysteries are in the cards but a good few are. I'm also fascinated that Hasbro Canada's french name is Ma Petite Pouliche, I think? And France it's Mon Petit Poney. But I have what we traditionally consider US-style cards and pearly baby sea ponies on French/Dutch language cards and a Dutch collector contact who swears blind those ponies weren't sold in the Netherlands...so were those only in Belgium? We tend to assume Netherlands and Belgium, Luxembourg kind of cross-over, but I've been having interesting conversations with this collector about all the potential differences between European markets.

As for the reason why the info is there for the UK, it;s really more because I'm stubborn and I've been here since 1998, when half of the UK ponies were still not known about online. And I mean stubborn, because I got threats when I first put my site up, because it contradicted Dream Valley. I had one girl tell me that her boyfriend was in England and she had my address so she knew where I lived and basically she wanted me to take down my website, or else.The reason we have such a US centric mindset towards MLP is because that site perpetuated untruths about international ponies for a long time and it took a lot of people from the UK and Europe constantly complaining to get it changed. But if you're not an American collector, or you're not writing about things from a US perspective, you are automatically on the periphery. It doesn't matter if you're right or not. When you're periphery, you're seen as a specialist on a particular field but not considered to have good knowledge of the 'mainstream' issues. And that makes it very hard to get rid of myths and rumours, when these 'mainstream' sources are still putting them about.  A good current example "UK White Tootsie", which Strawberry Reef still claims is a UK variant, even though she's not, and never has been, and that information has been available online since about the year 1999...yet people still use this site a lot and so I bet a lot of people still think white Tootsie is a UK variant. O.o. And that myth came from DV originally...another 'mainstream' source.

 Lunar-scythe mentioned the CP ponies coming out the year after the shy pose Applejack and Bow Tie. Actually, they were sold at the same time as the y3 set in the US, so they're equivalent to that set. They're our versions of the Bow Tie and AJ from that set, but they're not variants. They're Groom & Style Bow Tie and Applejack. CP AJ and Bow Tie is also ok though, as they are that pose. Just they're no less second edition AJ and Bow Tie than the y3 ponies are. Just, the US ones aren't considered variants, and that's only because they're in the US line.

As regards childhood ponies and the term "US pony".

My first pony was Windy, the rainbow pony. She's spent her entire life, (since she left Hong Kong, lol, approx 33 years) in the UK. She came on a UK style vertical card that my mother, bless her, remembers. That Windy was made and packaged for the UK market, on a UK card, and sold in a UK shop for £sterling. She was played with in UK gardens, taken to UK school and now lives in a UK cupboard.

I'd really like to know what about my Windy makes her a "US" pony, just because the pony character "Windy" was also sold in other countries than the UK?

Im not really attacking American collectors or the US release ponies or anything like that with this post. It's really partly because the US people have been so forward with information that we're in this situation as well, because that information got out there. BUT there is a place now for a more balanced approach than we had back when it all began. I believe this and have done for a long time. It would just be really nice for once to not see "non-" terms being used, or "UK variant" or "US pony" for a pony I grew up with ><.

[NightGliderSA]

This is a tricky subject for certain. I am not sure what the best answer is. As I am new to collecting, perhaps I am also labouring under incorrect illusions? My understanding of the term 'Nirvana' was ponies that were manufactured in countries other than Hong Kong or China, and as such had no real bearing on their rarity or lack thereof. Whereas 'variant' was a pony that was still manufactured in the same country as its stablemates (for want of a better word) of the same kind but which had some quirk or feature that made it different from them and in some way unique. Such as pink hearts vs. blue hearts Dazzleglow to use BabyIceCrystal's example.

Here in South Africa we are mainly known for a tiny handful of ponies, which are very hard to find. However we too had many of the so-called 'normal' ponies. 

So I think the definition of 'mainstream' is going to be rather difficult in itself and highly subjective depending on which country a person is from. What is perfectly normal to someone living in one country, someone living in a different country finds amazing. This is true of many things. Perhaps this is where the difficulty lies: people are inclined, quite naturally, to define things by their own level of 'normal'. I am not sure what the solution is, especially as we would ideally like this term or these terms to become more widely used. As such it would have to be simple and simple can be deceptively complicated.

[Ponyfan]

Wasn't there a time when Dream Valley said the blue Hearts Dazzleglow wasn't sold in North America? My blue hearts Dazzleglow also came from Canada. As much as I loved Dream Valley for rekindling my love of ponies that I thought I would never be in to as an adult there was some wrong information on there that wasn't corrected. One page mentioned not having a confirmed account of Beddy Bye Eyes Baby Gusty's duck toy wheel colors. I sent an email to the owner of the site noting the correct duck toy wheel color as I had BBE Gusty growing up and she was the only baby pony I had that came with a duck toy. I never got an acknowledgement for the information or saw the corrected info on the website.

 I have been guilty of using terms like the ones Taffeta mentioned to describe European ponies but will be more careful about that from now on. I'm happy we have so many international collectors here.

Ponyfan

[Taffeta]

I should re emphasise that US collectors are not villains at all. This thread has exposed the gaps and mistakes we all make and its really interesting seeing all the different issues.

@NightGlider, the term variant predates the term Nirvana and was the term used for ponies made in other places from the norm, which is really why it doesn't make sense to me with uk ponies. Uk version is fine but variant is something else to me.

@Ponyfan...in a word yes. I guess you don't want to know how long that rumour took to debunk. A clue...I still have the info proving it is not from the UK on my site.

I had very bad experiences with DV. . I  have heard similar from other UK people who remember that time.