Rant: Why dyes and markers will fade

[lostpony]

I have a question not entirely on topic here you might know something about so i hope you dont mind my asking.

There is an underlying issue when it comes to painting and i've bought some customs that reached the end of their life and the paint had separated from the pony presumably due to leaking plasticizer. So far i have shunned painting any pony until i understand this better, and your ideal view of plastic outliving you is simply not reality because up to half the mass is not stable pvc but a myriad of complex unstable materials including plasticizer, sometimes uv inhibitors and fire retardants and who knows what else, all of which varies from one pony to the next. Sealing in vaccuum doesnt stop these things from oozing out, breaking down and/or combining to form other things etc over time.

My question is: what paint so securely bonds to the pvc that it can survive this process without detaching and failing? Is there such a paint?

I know some paints are at least closer to this ideal than others because better quality customs made by people with more knowledge last longer than those made by people who just use acrylic paint directly on the pony and maybe a sealer on top. I believe those longer lasting customs have some kind of a foundation coat that addresses the issue i am asking about. I believe a different class of paint made from different materials entirely might work better but i have no knowledge to know what kind of materials.  Can you shed some light on this?

Thanks!

[Kazzellin]

Huh! Interesting. So, am I safe in assuming that if I ever dye a pony, I should count on needing to seal the entire pony and not just the painted symbol/eyes areas (ie, treat it like a full-body repaint)? If I'm reading what you meant with the bombardment of tiny light particles, then the sealer acts as a literal shield to keep these particles from touching the paint (and therefore also the dye), right?

Basically, yes.   

The sealer acts as a kind of shield. However I wouldn't suggest using dyes unless you absolutely have to.  Even with sealing, all dyes will fade eventually.  Light can break them down under the sealer (because the sealer is light transparent, so you can see through it) and cause them to discolour or fade.

Oh, I haven't used dye yet anyway; honestly not sure if I will, though some folks have done awesome restorations using it.

Lostpony: Well, ideally when you customize a pony you're washing it first; that helps the surface platsticizer residue go away while you're painting (I think?). Not to mention washing off whatever you used to remove the original cutie marks.

As for what paints, I've had a lot of success with Testor's brand acrylics, along with Model Masters and Bella, with a touch of DecoArt Crafter's Acrylic. Enamels and oil-based paints will not dry properly on ponies, unless they have a double-layer of an acrylic underneath them to act as a primer. Nail polish won't either, as far as I know.

Come to think on it, the only paint I've ever had simply peel off a pony was Glidden's Gripper  primer that was supposed to stick to anything, so there's irony for you. I'd bought it to use as a primer so I could use spray paint on a G3 (at the time, spray paint would melt pony plastic; I assume they've reformulated their paints so it doesn't any more, given that LoveLauraLand uses it on many of her customs with gorgeously stunning results).

[Xenotropos]

I have a question not entirely on topic here you might know something about so i hope you dont mind my asking.

There is an underlying issue when it comes to painting and i've bought some customs that reached the end of their life and the paint had separated from the pony presumably due to leaking plasticizer. So far i have shunned painting any pony until i understand this better, and your ideal view of plastic outliving you is simply not reality because up to half the mass is not stable pvc but a myriad of complex unstable materials including plasticizer, sometimes uv inhibitors and fire retardants and who knows what else, all of which varies from one pony to the next. Sealing in vaccuum doesnt stop these things from oozing out, breaking down and/or combining to form other things etc over time.

My question is: what paint so securely bonds to the pvc that it can survive this process without detaching and failing? Is there such a paint?


Thanks!

Argh!  That's a good point.  I guess  I was referring to the acrylic itself surviving you.  I've only worked with modern (hopefully slightly more stable) blindbag ponies.  On the other hand the oldest of those is, what, 7 years old?  Mere babies compared to some old 80's ponies.

I did a bit of digging and found out most toys were, and still are, painted with "pvc industrial plastic paint".  It's so durable that it's you can still find old toys in near pristine condition.  Trouble is, the stuff is so toxic when wet that it's banned in most countries (including the USA and likely Canada too).  When dry it's harmless.  So while that's ideal, it's out for home use.

From digging about, the ideal mix would be artist grade acrylic paint, or barring that, a hobby grade acrylic designed for gaming miniatures with a few drops of raw liquid latex mixed in.  If you can't get raw latex, acrylic medium will work too.  If you use folk art paints you will want to use a primer layer first, then seal the ponies afterwards.

Nothing painted will last forever, but there are some things I dug up that can help.

Before painting, prepare a warm water bath for your figures that includes a good glug of rubbing alcohol in it.  This should help remove oils and help your paint stick.  If the figure is sticky to start with, you can wet a paper towel or cloth down with hydrogen peroxide (the sort you buy at the drug store for cuts) and give your sticky pony a good scrub with that.  In any case let it dry overnight and see if it's sticky at all.  Repeat if it is.  (I'm working on an old, damaged Thundercats figure with sticky legs right now using this method. Panthro has had his bath and is getting his legs treated tonight.)

Next give it a primer coat.  I use an artist grade white paint and give the ponies a light coat all over.  Let that dry at least for several hours.

Never, ever use enamels (testors paints in those little glass bottles, nail polish and so on) as it will erode soft plastic and rubber and make stickiness issues worse. If you want a shiny pony, give it a top coat of gloss polyurethane.

I guess nothing will make a painted pony last like the pyramids, but this should help.  Or just enjoy the ponies au naturel.  No shame in NOT modding.

Post Merge: April 09, 2017, 07:36:41 PM

Come to think on it, the only paint I've ever had simply peel off a pony was Glidden's Gripper  primer that was supposed to stick to anything, so there's irony for you. I'd bought it to use as a primer so I could use spray paint on a G3 (at the time, spray paint would melt pony plastic; I assume they've reformulated their paints so it doesn't any more, given that LoveLauraLand uses it on many of her customs with gorgeously stunning results).

Here's something fun for a Sunday afternoon:

DO NOT, for the love of tiny rubber horses, DO NOT ever use any automotive paint sprays on your ponies.  I used to do tech support.  Once a kid called in complaining that his computer case had completely melted and warped.  Turns out he painted it a "cool colour" with sparkly automotive spray paint.  That stuff is for fiberglass and metal, not plastic of any sort. 

Unless of course you're looking to make a post apocalyptic melted nuclear pony.  Then go nuts.

[lostpony]

Thats most informative even though it dispells two of my favorite illusions: 1) that disovering the original paint would be a solution because you've discovered it and it's unavailable (darned truths!) and 2) experimenting with Testors model paint might work.

Seems like for now i will sticking with ponies as they are, or keeping my customs unpainted like i've been doing which is why my little Princess Big Mac is funko black with pinklestia pink wings and horn.

I just can't personally deal with something i create being unwashable or doomed to fail prematurely or need to be hidden from light. My stuff needs to survive the real world, not require museum conditions (it's just not that precious!).

So the original "pvc industrial paint" is actually made from pvc? Or made for painting on pvc? I assume its toxicity has to do with solvents, surface-preparers (mek, etc) and other such additives...i wonder if its pigments themselves and something less toxic to suspend it in /bind it to ponies might be findable to formulate a less industrial version. What do you think?

[Motion-Paradox]

Now I have a question, does it eventually fade completely off or just into a lighter shade?

I haven't dyed any Ponies yet, but I have a few G4 Ponies I had planned to dye based on the fact that they don't take dyes as well and that they lighten after a few months (all the dyes I've seen are brightly coloured, so my plan was to dye them in available colours and in a few months have Ponies that have faded into a more pastel shade); could you give me a bit of feedback on this and whether it would work the way I expect it to? The colours I planned to do this with were pink & blue (I saw this happen with a blue Pony somebody tried with, but I know it's a fugitive colour and runs more easily)

The reason why I wanted to dye them rather than paint them is because paint rarely looks right to me (not just the number of layers, the finish is different too)

[Xenotropos]

So the original "pvc industrial paint" is actually made from pvc? Or made for painting on pvc? I assume its toxicity has to do with solvents, surface-preparers (mek, etc) and other such additives...i wonder if its pigments themselves and something less toxic to suspend it in /bind it to ponies might be findable to formulate a less industrial version. What do you think?

I don't know much about the nature of pvc paint, other than that when it's wet it can cause cancer if you inhale it/fumes from drying paint or get it on your skin.  It's specifically for painting onto plastic but I have no idea what it's made from. I suspect it's the solvents in the paint that cause the trouble - otherwise it'd be toxic as all heck when dry too, and apparently it's harmless once it's cured.  I wouldn't want it in the house myself.  You might be able to find out more if you write or email some factories in China that use the stuff.  I don't know any Chinese though and I have no idea where the paint is made.  Sorry about that.  This is where my Ship of Knowledge runs aground.

Post Merge: April 09, 2017, 11:20:00 PM

Now I have a question, does it eventually fade completely off or just into a lighter shade?

I see what you're getting at, and it's a neat idea, sort of like using fading to work with you rather than against you.  Unfortunately there's really no way for me to predict how the fading will happen.  It depends on the dye itself, the plastic (and how much it absorbs) and other chemical interactions that nobody could plan on.

There's also no way to determine if the figure will fade evenly either.  Unless you could find a way to get light to hit all sides of the figure at the same rate and intensity all the time, I have a feeling it will fade unevenly (and I have no idea how you'd manage to create this light show, if it's possible in the first place).
   

If the dye penetrates really deeply into the plastic it may never go completely white, and may even go a weird off-shade if the UV light causes some chemicals in the colourant to break down into byproducts that produce other colours entirely.  No, your red pony won't suddenly turn green (or it shouldn't), but the bits that fade may not turn a true pink but a yellowish-pink instead.  Sun fading is often used, or so it seems from my travels on the interwebs, to brighten up white ponies.  I'm not sure how well it would turn a dark blue horse into a baby blue one.

it might be worth experimenting with some fakies to see what happens.  You could dye one, then leave it outside in direct sunlight for a few hot summer days, turning it around and over every few hours or so,  and see where it goes.

Fading over time however will still occur even on a purposefully faded pony.  There isn't really a way you can determine when it will reach a point where the colour stops changing permanently.

[lostpony]

Darn shoals. Here there be dragons.

There are some spray paints specifically for plastics maybe i should investigate those. Problem is, other than warning of certain known harmful things there is usually no disclosure as to whats in them to try to find their liquid equivalents.

Motion-Paradox i have similar aversion to painted texture. If i do find some paints i want to try, it's going to be applied by airbrush.