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Author Topic: G4 pretzel  (Read 4386 times)

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Offline Motion-Paradox

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Re: G4 pretzel
« Reply #15 on: March 11, 2017, 07:33:52 PM »
(Taffeta)
Ah, I knew about the characters in the shows and that even some of the earlier first generation Ponies got a few re-releases (Like the original 6) and the North American G2 as well, I just meant that European G2 was the first time they both had chosen a core cast and had the line last long enough afterwards for there to be several releases of them.

(Al-1701)
Well personally I think it's all a matter of how you look at it and in both cases you can interpret the characters either way: G1 had a larger cast of main characters to juggle and some got more spotlight and development than others, and some interpret this as the characters being more subtle or leaving more to the imagination, while others see them as being one-note or difficult to distinguish from each other or somewhere in between the two. From what you see of Wind Whistler you could interpret her the way you're worried she would have been if she had been in G4 or you can interpret her as being a highly logical person who, though she does feel emotion, is not comfortable with it and sometimes hides behind logic to avoid it. Similarly you could see Fizzy as being ditsy and overly talkative (the latter is even something the others complain about her doing in the movie), or you can interpret her as being somebody who is friendly, enthusiastic and determined to hold onto her optimism despite the negative things she's experienced (Even if you ignore the "Jewel Mine Wizard" story from the comics, Dream Valley comes under threat quite a lot and it could be quite easy to get overwhelmed)

G4 on the other hand has a smaller core cast but is able to give them more attention, though this sometimes causes issues when the spotlight is off a character since it can be difficult to show the aspects we see in their spotlight episodes when somebody else's problem is the focus and, however you feel about it, for those episodes you have to remember the "why" from the other episodes. (Spoilers for length)

Spoiler
True, Pinkie is hyper, comes off as immature, over-reacts, and doesn't seems to understand boundaries that most take for granted, but for the most part we're given reasons for the way she behaves. From watching her episodes we know that puts a lot of pressure on herself and tries to hide it so she doesn't spoil somebody else's good mood, she has things that she's good at and loves to do and she sees failing at them as failing as a person, and worries that her friends mean more to her than she does to them. Although she seems incapable of taking things seriously or understanding the gravity of some of the situations she's in, she actually does, it's just that not in the way most would; she doesn't react to threats as the others do because she's more confident that everything will be alright (Interesting trivia, in the Pinkie Sense episode she mentions one that goes off "When something really scary's about to happen" and it's never gone off once in the show) and she does have things that she takes seriously, it's just a different balance than most (really, would it have been that bad if Twilight wasn't surprised when Cadance & Shining told her they were having a baby?)

True she doesn't seem to understand certain norms, like the fact that a formal party is different from the ones she enjoys, and seems to completely miss the negative emotions of others unless she's beaten over the head with it, but we're given a reason for that too; the first 6 years of our lives are the formative years where we put together most of our structure for how things work and are and, well, she didn't spend those years in a normal environment and most of the people she knew had emotions that were really subtle. My guess is some either had really over the top emotions (like one of her sisters does) or it was over compensating once she realised her family wasn't the norm, leaving the middle ground most of us are best with as a sort of mystery zone that she has trouble understanding. But we also see at times that she's smarter than she's usually given credit for (If nothing else she's managed to overcome the limit of Dunbar's Number), can be surprisingly organisned & hardworking, though sometimes her usual image holds her back

Similarly, Rainbow Dash does initially come off as a dumb jock, but we see there's more to her than that, that much of her show boating comes from a lack of confidence, and she initially have a very limiting image of herself that she expands over the course of the series. Part of the reason Rainbow Dash shows off so much is because she's digging for praise as this is part of how she validates herself. This may be why she and Pinkie get along so well, because they are the two most extroverted of their friends and enjoy similar things, including entertaining others, but at the same time have insecurities that they try to keep hidden by pushing their usual image over top of it and gain validation through the reactions of other Ponies to what they do. We also find out in one episode that Rainbow Dash is a kinetic learner, meaning that she has difficulty learning in a classroom environment and needs to be moving in order to learn and that she's actually capable of taking in quite a bit of information when she does (even if you find her test review implausible, before that she notices the things happening around her while keeping track of the conversation she's having), while we don't know how well the schools she went to accommodated her learning style, if they didn't it could explain a lot.

True, Rainbow Dash does end up being faced with a lot of disfunctional people to "test her loyalty", but there's a bit more to it; like her namesake, G4 Rainbow Dash is a very image centered pony (even if it's a different type of image) and can end up being temporarily blinded by the image others project and how well this matches her ideals; this doesn't apply only to errors of inclusion, such as the Wonderbolts in "Rainbow Falls", but errors of exclusion as well such as how she was initially dismissive of Tank because he lacked the physical features she was looking for and later chose him as her pet when she realised he had other qualities that she valued. Yes she does sometimes come off as being Miss-Awesome-Sportsmare-And-Nothing-Else because that's how she saw herself for a long time, through her experiences over the series she's begun to learn that she can be and already is more than that, but she's still learning so it sometimes takes a while, but you can see a shift in her reactions. For example in both Ticket Master & Trade Ya there's a moment near the end where, after spending the entire day pursuing something she dearly wants without noticing the upset she's causing for one of her friends, she finally gets it and celebrates for a moment before being made aware that she's behaved badly; in the first it takes everyone else around her expressing their disapproval for her to realise this, but in the second she's able to reach that conclusion on her own, and perhaps next time she'll be able to realise it before she makes a mistake. All of this also explains cases where she's had to live through being on a receiving end of her behaviour to understand what she's done wrong; she learns by doing and experiencing, and sympathy beyond recognising bullying and betrayal is something she's just started to learn fairly recently, she's getting there but she also has a lifetime of conditioning to overcome.

Simply put, both series have their strong and weak points and in some cases share them: Both have a mixture of adventure & slice of life stories (Friendship is Magic began including more adventure stories than it originally had), they both have fun characters in an interesting setting the audience wants to know more about....they also both have product placement of mixed subtlety and destroyed somebody's house to introduce a new one. One isn't necessarily better than the other, but they don't appeal to the exact same sensibilities, though I prefer to focus on the aspects of things I do find appealing and I admit that once something has won me over it's difficult to make me dislike it

Offline Al-1701

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Re: G4 pretzel
« Reply #16 on: March 12, 2017, 11:22:18 AM »
I think you're missing my point that these characters have been boiling down to the point they don't have those nuances anymore.  They might have at first, but they have fallen by the wayside in favor of cranking up the traits that are popular.

That's what gives us episodes like Filli Vanilli for Pinkie Pie.  Her behavior makes no sense beyond her being the LOLRANDOM pony.  She, as a person, would not do that to Fluttershy.  It is the behavior of a walking gag machine with no sense of empathy (which, ironically, she supposedly learned to have just two episodes prior).

And Rainbow Dash is just insufferable.  You can also tell they have to dumb everything down when she is the star.  Wonderbolt Academy could have been a truly character moment for her, but it would have required her to use that mass between her ears, so the lesson was dumbed down to the basic "be loyal to your friends" lesson all of her episodes teach.  They had to completely sabotage the Equestria Games arc just for her to have her crisis of element episode.

FiM's characters aren't deep or complicated.  They're just loud.  Which is fine most of the time in a slice of life comedy show.  Sheldon Cooper is the same way, but that's what makes the humor in The Bang Theory work so well.  Unfortunately the writers of FiM get in their own way as they too often act smarter than they really are.

G1 feels like they had some good ideas for the characters provided to them, but they never had the resources and ran out of time.  Friendship is Magic has been given an embarrassment resources and time, and yet can't even make Twilight becoming a princess relevant.

So, I take the current show one episode at a time (I've found that's the best way anymore) and hope the next generation will get the substance to go with the style.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 11:25:42 AM by Al-1701 »
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Re: G4 pretzel
« Reply #17 on: May 21, 2017, 10:19:39 AM »
Hurling abuse because someone dares to  have a differing opinion from yours is not a welcome approach at the Arena. Learn to disagree without being disagreeable. -SDS
« Last Edit: May 22, 2017, 12:31:21 PM by SourdoughStomper »

Offline Leave a Whisper

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Re: G4 pretzel
« Reply #18 on: May 21, 2017, 10:52:15 AM »
I think you're missing my point that these characters have been boiling down to the point they don't have those nuances anymore.  They might have at first, but they have fallen by the wayside in favor of cranking up the traits that are popular.

That's what gives us episodes like Filli Vanilli for Pinkie Pie.  Her behavior makes no sense beyond her being the LOLRANDOM pony.  She, as a person, would not do that to Fluttershy.  It is the behavior of a walking gag machine with no sense of empathy (which, ironically, she supposedly learned to have just two episodes prior).

And Rainbow Dash is just insufferable.  You can also tell they have to dumb everything down when she is the star.  Wonderbolt Academy could have been a truly character moment for her, but it would have required her to use that mass between her ears, so the lesson was dumbed down to the basic "be loyal to your friends" lesson all of her episodes teach.  They had to completely sabotage the Equestria Games arc just for her to have her crisis of element episode.

FiM's characters aren't deep or complicated.  They're just loud.  Which is fine most of the time in a slice of life comedy show.  Sheldon Cooper is the same way, but that's what makes the humor in The Bang Theory work so well.  Unfortunately the writers of FiM get in their own way as they too often act smarter than they really are.

G1 feels like they had some good ideas for the characters provided to them, but they never had the resources and ran out of time.  Friendship is Magic has been given an embarrassment resources and time, and yet can't even make Twilight becoming a princess relevant.

So, I take the current show one episode at a time (I've found that's the best way anymore) and hope the next generation will get the substance to go with the style.
Wonderbolts Academy was a fantastic character moment for RD and you're objectively an idiot if you think otherwise.

That was pretty rude.  :mad:
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Offline Sunset

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Re: G4 pretzel
« Reply #19 on: May 21, 2017, 10:54:25 AM »
I feel like it's better that they don't bring back old characters with personalities. Too many people would grumble that it wasn't how they would want it to be.

However, I wish they'd sort of put more G1 ponies in the background, kind of like little easter eggs.

I recommend the comics for that, especially the ones done by Amy Mebberson, I know the Princess Celestia Micro series issue & the Bookworm arc had several (along with other cameos, she has an entire set of Sailor Moon Ponies too)

I absolutely agree with this.  But I don't even need them in the show.  Just the toys.  How come we have like a 100 plus non-show blind bag characters and non of them are g1?  It's not like it's harder to trademark "Glory the unicorn" than "Banana Fluff"!


I'm sick of people repeating the "lost the rights" lie.  Hasbro did not lose the rights to the names.  Copyrights are essentially immortal.  The trademarks have lapsed, but they could have been renewed if Hasbro so wished.  However, Hasbro did not so wish.

By the time Hasbro asked Faust to come on board for the show (and ONLY the show), they had a pretty good idea that they wanted to start off by repeating ponies from G3.  In fact, they wanted the Core7 ponies to be carried over as main characters and it was all Faust could do to convince them that Cheerilee would be best served as a B character.

That is why Faust couldn't use her original choices.  The plans of the generation were already too far along.

This is my interpretation of what happened also.


Offline Al-1701

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Re: G4 pretzel
« Reply #20 on: May 21, 2017, 10:57:58 AM »
Wonderbolts Academy was a fantastic character moment for RD and you're objectively an idiot if you think otherwise.

Her saying she quit if the Wonderbolts didn't care about basic safety?  The choice was made so painfully obvious should have to be comatose to not do that?  The Wonderbolts were portrayed so badly in that episode.  You are supposedly a squadron of precision formation fliers, yet you're completely oblivious to one of your students ignoring the well being of her fellow fliers and will likely get someone killed if you put her in the air.

If Rainbow Dash was a character who could learn more than the most basic lesson, they could have done more.  Toss out the pointless Pinkie Pie scenes and have Lightning Dust in trouble because she reckless.  Have Rainbow Dash's dilemma be leave Lightning Bliss to save her own career or take the chance of going down with her to teach her to work as part of team.  Have Rainbow Dash's triumph be saving Lightning Dust from expulsion to demonstrate true loyalty is when you are willing to go out on a limb for others even if it could harm you.  However, Rainbow Dash is too stupid for that, so Lightning Bliss is just a jerk who needs her comeuppance.
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Re: G4 pretzel
« Reply #21 on: May 21, 2017, 12:40:32 PM »
Wonderbolts Academy was a fantastic character moment for RD and you're objectively an idiot if you think otherwise.

Dude, chill. People can have different opinions, if they don't like it, they don't like it, doesn't make them an idiot.

If you do a search you can find the original concept art but you can find a chart somebody made here: http://vignette2.wikia.nocookie.net/mlpfanart/images/d/d1/History_concept.jpg/revision/latest?cb=20111008150105

Sorry to nitpick, but that art of the G1 ponies by Lauren Faust isn't concept art for FiM, it's fanart. She drew those before she started working with Hasbro and took them off her dA after she got the job. I suppose it's arguably pre-concept art in a way since those were the ponies she originally wanted to use for for the show, but it's still not the same thing as actual concept art :p Sorry to sound pedantic.

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Re: G4 pretzel
« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2017, 07:10:29 PM »
Wonderbolts Academy was a fantastic character moment for RD and you're objectively an idiot if you think otherwise.

Wow, that's not cool. Calm down, this isn't that 'other site' where the bronies hang out. We're more tolerant of opinions here, pun not intended.

Back on topic, if you're looking for G1 shout-outs, I second the comics. Waaay better than the show IMO, and there's no name-stealing ponies! That said, the name-stealing thing isn't new to G4. G3 Applejack or Cotton Candy, anyone?
« Last Edit: May 21, 2017, 07:14:15 PM by Stormness_1 »
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Offline Nemesis

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Re: G4 pretzel
« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2017, 07:20:46 PM »
I'm a big Transformers fan, and I will agree that G1 TF gets a lot more attention than any of Hasbro's other "classic" properties. I really do wish MLP could be similar, but I think the difference really just boils down to how things played out within marketing and the respective fanbases. :shrug:

Fun fact: when TF was first truly "rebooted" (as Beast Wars, back in the 90s), basically EVERYTHING was changed. No returning characters, and no references to the original series aside from a handful of names and some similar character archtypes. A lot of G1 fans were around on the prehistoric 90s interwebs, and (as fanbases have always done, since the dawn of time) they had a lot of heated discussion about the reboot. Some people started theorizing as to whether or not BW existed in the same canon as G1. At the time, the show's writers had no intent to tie the two series together, but when they saw the fanbase talking... they listened. Suddenly, BW was a direct continuation of G1, and the original characters became critical plot elements.

MLP... Yeah, not so much. When you look at G2 and G3, they truly had nothing in common with their predecessors. Hasbro wasn't shooting for older fans--they were just selling toy ponies to a new generation of little kids. Up until G4, adult MLP fans were not really considered in marketing. G4 turned that on its head with its unexpectedly broad fanbase, brony subculture, and active followers. Plus, G4 is actually the closest thing to G1 in terms of story and setting, and basically the only generation of ponies since the 80s to even reference the original characters, let alone include them in the show (with the exception of Spike, of course).

What can we take from all this? That in a post-G4 world, Hasbro will most likely take the adult MLP fanbase into far greater consideration than in the past. :) Even when G4 fizzles out, I think MLP will be treated with something closer to the care that has been given to the TF franchise.
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Re: G4 pretzel
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2017, 08:08:34 AM »
That said, the name-stealing thing isn't new to G4. G3 Applejack or Cotton Candy, anyone?

Heck, the reused names thing goes back to G1! Baby Half Note vs Rockin' Beats Half Note, Big Bro Salty vs baby sea pony Salty, Tabby vs Little Tabby, etc etc. It bugs me but it is what it is, haha.
(G2 has some reused names too - Sundance, [Prince] Firefly, Melody, Morning Glory, etc. Not to mention how every single gen has at least one pony called Cupcake ^_~)
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Re: G4 pretzel
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2017, 10:07:20 AM »
Big Bro Salty vs baby sea pony Salty

This one really gets me because they were sold the SAME YEAR, lol.  Same with Pink Dreams--they released a flutter pony with the name and a Soft Sleepy Newborn with the name in the same year.

I'm thinking about renaming my flutter Catnap, since she came with the slumber party set and has a cat symbol.
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Offline Leave a Whisper

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Re: G4 pretzel
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2017, 10:18:57 AM »
Big Bro Salty vs baby sea pony Salty

This one really gets me because they were sold the SAME YEAR, lol.  Same with Pink Dreams--they released a flutter pony with the name and a Soft Sleepy Newborn with the name in the same year.

I'm thinking about renaming my flutter Catnap, since she came with the slumber party set and has a cat symbol.

See, Catnap would have made more sense.
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Offline Dragonflitter

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Re: G4 pretzel
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2017, 10:57:09 AM »
I like in one recent episode where they did a G1 reference but made it part of Equestria history. Twilight was reading a fairy tale book to some fillies called Gusty The Great. And the unicorn on the cover was our favorite white and green gal. :D

Rather than seeing G1 characters in FiM, I'd like more historical refs like that. Very cute. ^.^
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Offline Luxrayx

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Re: G4 pretzel
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2017, 11:51:18 AM »
Wonderbolts Academy was a fantastic character moment for RD and you're objectively an idiot if you think otherwise.
"objectively an idiot". Read your words again  :lookround:
This is completely off topic, but I'm pretty sure there's no such thing. Unless you're talking about the greek idiotes, meaning a person with no interest in politics, which Al may or may not objectively be.

Anyway, this isn't an objective board, but if you want to explain why you subjectively feel the way you do about G4 characters compared to G1 (...what the thread is actually about), it could certainly add to the discussion :)

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Re: G4 pretzel
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2017, 01:06:02 PM »
Big Bro Salty vs baby sea pony Salty

This one really gets me because they were sold the SAME YEAR, lol.  Same with Pink Dreams--they released a flutter pony with the name and a Soft Sleepy Newborn with the name in the same year.

I'm thinking about renaming my flutter Catnap, since she came with the slumber party set and has a cat symbol.

See, Catnap would have made more sense.

Catnap is such a cute name for her!! I always thought Pink Dreams was a bit of an.. odd name. -cough- I mean, I like it, but you know. (All of the ponies in that set had sort of questionable names, though - Pillow Talk, anyone? :P)
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