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Author Topic: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo  (Read 10563 times)

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Offline Ember1

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Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
« Reply #15 on: January 09, 2017, 06:33:10 AM »
Tootsietails. I dont think we can see the full forlock length of the pony. It is hidden behind the stall door. You can see the bend of the hair on her forhead by the pressure of the door. Her symbol is in the same spot and looks about the same size also. The tail of the pony in the photo stretches out farther just like my pony.

I believe its the same one but  just as with any prototype in any catalogue photo we cant be sure there werent multiples protos created as that is part of the production process.  Any prototype out there will have a level of uncertainty. We can only look at the evidence we have. For this pony the evidence points to her being a prototype and im so glad there is some paper trail now.

And its important to remember that like Karlee stated prototypes come in three stages.

Stage 1 is Wax Sculpt-- like the bubbles wax model hasbro displays.
Stage 2 is hard copy to which cp sundance and paintingtime proto belong. Stage 3 is first shot to which the majority of prototypes that have been found belong to.

Most of stage 1 and 2 were destroyed. Stage 3 protos managed to survive more probably because more of them were produced through the factory at once.

Heres a pic of the factory weave ;)
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« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 06:50:52 AM by Ember1 »
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Offline kasin

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Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
« Reply #16 on: January 09, 2017, 08:00:52 AM »
The two photos (one with Lemon Drop and one with Sundance) look like the same photo shoot. The deliberate removal of Brandy and moving the fence and door makes it hard to argue a photo edit. I would guess they were considering an alternative release for the playset, maybe a store catalog exclusive (those were popular in the 80s and sometimes had variations like different colored accessories, alternative packaging etc.)

When Ember showed this pony to me and a couple other long time collectors we all remembered seeing it in a promo photo in the late 90s or early 2000's but we couldent find the photo again. I can't confirm, but I think it was a toy show cataloge or some other material not intended for distribution outside the industry, I could be wrong there, but that's what I remember. This photo fits my memory, so I think it's the one we saw in our early collecting years.

As far as proving a proto is real... Hasbro did not document possession of these because they saw them as production waste and intended for them to be destroyed to protect intellectual property and avoid any liability from a child playing with a pony not up to safety standards. So the only protos out there are by nature not going to have recognition  from Hasbro. We simply need to decide as a community if we accept them or not.  Honestly I don't know why this particular proto gets so much scrutiny? the painting time or baby Explorer seem more accepted and I don't understand why when they came from UK car boot sales with just as much providence as CP Sundance? Clippers recent sunspot proto was not questioned as much either?

And just to make a point (Devils advocate). It is possable to fake a prototype, a variant or even a full production. There are people with enough knowledge and/or access to production equipment that could easily produce something if they had motivation. The question is why bother, it dosent make enough money to warrant the effort and it would take alot of effort to make it pass as real.

Offline angelponies

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Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
« Reply #17 on: January 09, 2017, 08:27:03 AM »
I have been collecting Nirvana and oddballs for quite sometime and along with the ponies that have been found and seeing this gal I think she is legit, just my humble opinion :satisfied: I had the SS Gusty with blue eyes and eyelashes painted on the SS Posey with the painted on eyes and yellow hair so the folks that produced these ponies did some crazy things with them! I mean a Beddy eyed Sunlight is in the community now too! And I have seen a lot of different prototypes/ oddballs over the years, I even had bought a red haired G1 Tootsie from a gal who got it from a Hasbro employee, so I think Sundance is prototype, and Ember your are so lucky to own her!! She is so pretty in that pose! :satisfied:
« Last Edit: January 09, 2017, 08:32:23 AM by angelponies »

Offline Vettefromm

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Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
« Reply #18 on: January 09, 2017, 10:54:48 AM »
As far as proving a proto is real... Hasbro did not document possession of these because they saw them as production waste and intended for them to be destroyed to protect intellectual property and avoid any liability from a child playing with a pony not up to safety standards. So the only protos out there are by nature not going to have recognition  from Hasbro. We simply need to decide as a community if we accept them or not.  Honestly I don't know why this particular proto gets so much scrutiny? the painting time or baby Explorer seem more accepted and I don't understand why when they came from UK car boot sales with just as much providence as CP Sundance? Clippers recent sunspot proto was not questioned as much either?

Painting Time, Baby Explorer and Sunspot would be much, much harder to produce. And in all three cases the back stories have backed the prototype theory up. I am sorry if I sound like I'm giving Sundance such a hard time - I am just saying that she would be easy to make from a birthflower pony. The factory weave is a big deal (in my subjective opinion), and I also believe that she is real now :)

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Offline Ponyland

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Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
« Reply #19 on: January 09, 2017, 11:26:56 AM »
Quote from: tootie_tails
It is very interesting to see the catalog picture. Where is it from? Has it been confirmed it's from Argos or is that just guessing?

It's just a guess based on other Argos catalogs, so far. We really need to confirm were it comes from. Argos is a place to start looking, if we can't get an answer from the owner of the catalog. :) I'm actually thinking this pic originates from a Hasbro UK Toy catalogue, sent to retailers (who often used the pic's in their advertising). I collect those, but they are super hard to find (and expensive) . I only have the 1986, and 1989 one from UK. (But I have most of the years from US, and the pic is not present in them)

edit to add: the altered picture of Grooming Parlour is the box picture(?) for the parlour with Snuzzle... I think that playset actually exists, but the box picture is just edited.. it is mentioned in taffeta's website.

The edited box is very crudely done, more like someone had drawn a Snuzzle on top of Peachy. I don't have the saved pic on this computer.



The two photos (one with Lemon Drop and one with Sundance) look like the same photo shoot. The deliberate removal of Brandy and moving the fence and door makes it hard to argue a photo edit. I would guess they were considering an alternative release for the playset, maybe a store catalog exclusive (those were popular in the 80s and sometimes had variations like different colored accessories, alternative packaging etc.)

I completely agree on that! My first thought was that it can't hardly be a photo edit with those differences, not in the 80's. And I too think it's the same photo shoot, the setting is to perfect a match for being done in 2 separate occasions. That's why I'm guessing a Hasbro UK photo shoot, and that it was sent out to retailers. The low quality of the Sundance image (grainy and yellowed) suggest that its printed on thin cheap paper like in a toy magazine. Hasbro UK Toy Catalogues for retailers has a high quality/glossy pages that doesn't yellow easy. Thats why I'm guessing that Argos could have reprinted the pic in their advertising, since they also had other "exclusive" stuff like snuzzle with pretty parlor and snuzzle with baby Bow-Tie and stroller., (poor surplus Snuzzle). But it could be from another retailer in UK too, I just don't know of any other that large.

But I'm really eager to know what that catalogue collector actually have! It's all guessing and speculations until we know that! :)


Quote from: kasin
And just to make a point (Devils advocate). It is possable to fake a prototype, a variant or even a full production. There are people with enough knowledge and/or access to production equipment that could easily produce something if they had motivation. The question is why bother, it dosent make enough money to warrant the effort and it would take alot of effort to make it pass as real.

All that matters when collecting prototypes is the provenance, and how it was discovered. Like my first shot FF Blue Belle with spots as symbol. She was found in Rhode Island, and looks exactly like the Hasbro Toy Fair catalog - and has traces of white paint under her feet that matches the white painted podiums the ponies were standing on when they were photographed.

It's harder with a pony with partial hand painted details though, but the way this pony was found  - and how she looks, the finish, makes me really believe in her being a prototype. I think that she really looks like she was made long before collectors started to customize ponies. And now with this catalogue pic being found I feel confident that she is the same one used for that photoshoot. :) (the coincidence that a CP Sundance being made as a custom, and looking exactly like the one in this picture, which existence is not common knowledge, is also just too slim to me)

The important part is that if she is recognized by the community as a prototype, then she is a prototype. We can't prove it any more than she already has been proved.  I can only say, that if she was for sale now in the community as a prototype, I would buy her! I can't give any more endorsement than that!  ;)
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Offline princessluna11706

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Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2017, 07:37:52 PM »
Wow Ember, this is even more convincing evidence for me :) I really believe she's legit.
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Offline tootie_tails

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Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
« Reply #21 on: January 10, 2017, 12:58:57 AM »
I don't believe they are the same pony, mostly because of the forelock.

The pony in the catalog picture has a normal forelock, the typical forelock that makes a soft curve and ends about where the pony's nostrils are. Like you would expect on a pony like that, like Lemondrop for example.

And ember's pony has a much longer forelock.

I still think it would be great if we could see the picture in its original context. I hope you can contact the person you got the picture from, and that they still have the catalog.


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Offline daffodil101

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Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
« Reply #22 on: January 10, 2017, 02:26:21 AM »
This is so exciting!  This proves that at some point an actual physical hasbro-made CP Sundance definitely existed, 100% genuine.  I don't think that the fall of her hair indicates the pony in the catalogue is different than Ember's-- collectors love to groom and style their ponies and the photo is low-res and she's obscured by the playset. 

i think since CP Sundance was first brought into the community (bought by Ember) it's been established beyond reasonable doubt that she is genuine and not a custom.  In Ember's thread a number of very experienced collectors went to inspect the pony in person and unanimously agreed that in their opinions she was genuine.  I'm inclined to go with their expertise.

I know the theories and what-ifs will continue to circulate, but certainly to me the evidence overwhelmingly points to Sundance being the real deal. 


Just an addendum as well...  [edit for backseat modding, this is an open discussion. The mods will make sure it stays on track :) love pkw xxx] Sundance's authenticity, as it has already been discussed very thoroughly and is probably a bit depressing for Ember.  Instead maybe go check out the original thread where it's been discussed at length, it's a great read to refresh your memory or if she's new to you!

http://mlparena.com/index.php/topic,366660.240.html

Thanks for sharing the photo Ember!   :grouphug:
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 01:28:08 PM by pinkkittywinks »

Offline LadyGuinevere

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Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
« Reply #23 on: January 10, 2017, 08:20:18 AM »
It is perfectly acceptable to debate the authenticity of a pony (not just this one!) regardless of whether it has been said before, as if we never challenge things (in general), we don't learn more. Everyone is going to have an opinion and we don't all have to agree.

Myself, I'd really like to see the rest of the scanned page. It looks so close to the one from Argos, but is missing the number reference on the image and I don't recall seeing an Argos scan of that particular one (there are a lot of scanned catalogues around across the different years). As far as we know, Argos did produce their own pictures, normally with existing products though, as typically they are not overly ahead of the game. Once it's in the catalogue, it's in the shop - they don't come out ahead of time - so no need to use a prototype. It's always possible they shared images with another catalogue, perhaps elsewhere and the rest of the page would give interesting provenance to the image itself to consider things further.
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Offline Ember1

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Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
« Reply #24 on: January 10, 2017, 09:25:07 AM »
Check this out.. Looks like Argos strikes again... Its a catalogue image from Argos with a butterscotch for the pretty parlor.. Some of the accessories look different too.. Has anyone seen this?

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Too much skepticism when evidence consistently point to an authentic pony creates a negative connotation with sharing new discoveries. For instance, I have a few other oddities in my collection and I am a bit hesitant to share them with the community.. I can understand everyone has their own opinion but finding and sharing CP Sundance with the community has been a very stressful experience for me. I find so much time and energy is devoted to proving that she's real when I already know she is real.

 All I am saying is that when sharing new discoveries becomes so draining and they loose the excitement of the discovery due to constant negativity it starts to become not worth it for me.. I would rather appreciate and share them privately ;)

Before the skeptics wanted catalogue proof that she existed. It took years for that evidence to finally surface. Now you want the full article. And then if we ever get that something else will be needed. No matter how much proof is assembled here it never seems to be good enough for a few members.   

 This is an amazing discovery and I am very happy its been made. It sound like other community members are happy as well. 


:party: :party: :party:

« Last Edit: January 11, 2017, 06:58:46 AM by Ember1 »
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Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
« Reply #25 on: January 10, 2017, 09:53:39 AM »
Check this out.. Looks like Argos strikes again... Its a catalogue image from Argos with a butterscotch for the pretty parlor.. Some of the accessories look different too.. Has anyone seen this?

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The accessories shown in that Parlour promo picture are similar to what is shown in the 1983 US Hasbro toy fair catalog pictures. The cat shown in the US Hasbro catalog is more cartoon-ish than the one that was produced for the Parlor, and the other items seem to be quick mock-ups with a lower quality plastic basket & some handmade looking reins & hat decorations. Perhaps (at least in 1983/4 at the very beginning of the line) Argos did have some pre-production items for their photos. I really don't know much about Argos photos other than what the longtime UK pony people  have shared online, so that's really all I have to add here. ;)

Offline angelponies

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Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
« Reply #26 on: January 10, 2017, 12:16:58 PM »
Check this out.. Looks like Argos strikes again... Its a catalogue image from Argos with a butterscotch for the pretty parlor.. Some of the accessories look different too.. Has anyone seen this?

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Too much skepticism when evidence consistently point to an authentic pony creates a negative connotation with sharing new discoveries. For instance, I have a few other oddities in my collection and I am a bit hesitant to share them with the community.. I can understand everyone has their own opinion but finding and sharing CP Sundance with the community has been a very stressful experience for me. I find so much time and energy is devoted to proving that she's real when I already know she is real.

The enjoyment of the thrill of finding a genuine piece of the hasbro history is lost. I don't know if i want to go through that with the few other gems I have.. Its just my personal decision though.. Everyone is entitled to do as they like. All I am saying is that when sharing new discoveries becomes so draining and they loose the excitement of the discovery due to constant negativity it starts to become not worth it for me.. I would rather appreciate and share them privately ;)

Before the skeptics wanted catalogue proof that she existed. It took years for that evidence to finally surface. Now you want the full article. And then if we ever get that something else will be needed. No matter how much proof is assembled here it never seems to be good enough for the skeptics.  It is very draining as im always fighting for the truth. If some people want to believe otherwise it their choice. Im just done trying to appease. This is an amazing discovery and I am very happy its been made. It sound like other community members are happy as well. 


:party: :party: :party:


Check this out.. Looks like Argos strikes again... Its a catalogue image from Argos with a butterscotch for the pretty parlor.. Some of the accessories look different too.. Has anyone seen this?

visitors can't see pics , please register or login


Too much skepticism when evidence consistently point to an authentic pony creates a negative connotation with sharing new discoveries. For instance, I have a few other oddities in my collection and I am a bit hesitant to share them with the community.. I can understand everyone has their own opinion but finding and sharing CP Sundance with the community has been a very stressful experience for me. I find so much time and energy is devoted to proving that she's real when I already know she is real.

The enjoyment of the thrill of finding a genuine piece of the hasbro history is lost. I don't know if i want to go through that with the few other gems I have.. Its just my personal decision though.. Everyone is entitled to do as they like. All I am saying is that when sharing new discoveries becomes so draining and they loose the excitement of the discovery due to constant negativity it starts to become not worth it for me.. I would rather appreciate and share them privately ;)

Before the skeptics wanted catalogue proof that she existed. It took years for that evidence to finally surface. Now you want the full article. And then if we ever get that something else will be needed. No matter how much proof is assembled here it never seems to be good enough for the skeptics.  It is very draining as im always fighting for the truth. If some people want to believe otherwise it their choice. Im just done trying to appease. This is an amazing discovery and I am very happy its been made. It sound like other community members are happy as well. 


:party: :party: :party:




I am sorry Ember :hug: I would absolutely love to see your post your other gems as I have seen them and tried to win a couple myself and they are definitely worth seeing!!

I think that she is legit, I think that she is a prototype too in my humble opinion, so I am going to believe that unless it is proven otherwise =) I remember when you first posted about her, as I had missed out on that auction when you won it as I had not been on to outbid you muaaahahaha ;) Now there is a photo of her in the 80's catalog or one of her  :) it looks like her bang might be hidden behind the stall door :fox:

There will always be skeptics, even on things proven time and time again, just in general there always is it's how life goes, I know that the continual skepticism of some gets tiresome, but please don't let that keep you from sharing :hug: I really enjoy you sharing these wonderful finds! And I know how it is, when you find one of these gems and want to share it with others :heart:
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 12:27:21 PM by angelponies »

Offline kasin

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Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
« Reply #27 on: January 10, 2017, 02:20:00 PM »
That parlor absolutly must be a proto with those weird accessories. Honestly Butterscotch looks a little off to me too, but I can't figure out what it is that is off about her. It's possable she is proto too. This would suggest Argos did work with photos of protos.

CP Sundance must be the most scrutinized pony in the community at this point. We accept plenty of other variants that are difficult or impossable to prove like reverse gusty, white windy, white Italian firefly, all the doll hospital  rehairs from South America.  Why is this one so contested? Do we even have a proper paper trail for every country's licencing?


Offline Ember1

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Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
« Reply #28 on: January 10, 2017, 02:48:46 PM »
I think most community members at this point accept cp sundance as a genuine prototype. Its hard not to at this point with additional catalogue photo evidence. I just think some people probably dont want to believe no matter what evidence you show them. Its frustrating but its their choice. But the legit evidence is still there. And if your going to scrutinize one prototype to the extent cp sundance has been scritinized do it for them all - variants and prototypes alike. And also expect that owners of new pony discoveries in the future may not be so forthcoming and rightfully so.

 As I said before, a healthy level of skeptisism is good when looking at variants but when there is overwealming evidence proving the ponys authenticity then that continual level of skeptisism is very detrimental to the collecting community and its members.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2017, 03:30:18 PM by Ember1 »
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Offline pinkkittywinks

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Re: CP Sundance Catalogue Photo
« Reply #29 on: January 10, 2017, 03:28:01 PM »
Let's keep this topic on track and remember that everyone is entitled to their opinion.

I'd like to add, it is tricky when you come across a very unique variant. As far as I know I was the first person to own Princess Prawn (Princess Dawn's head and Princess Ruby's body) I told NO ONE, because she is so crazy and I knew no one would believe me as at the time I was still new to the community. I had her for a year before I discovered BabyKittenCandy had one too. She came upto me at PonyCon 2005 and started describing this princess variant she had and I finished off describing it :P but with other ponies, it's just not as simple as finding two.

Going back on topic, I'd love to find out, if possible, which catalogue the "Sundance Show Stable" picture was published in. It might have some other gems in we've yet to learn about.

I can't help but think of the Megan's Place playset when I see that of Sundance in the show stable.

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