CP Sundance Catalogue Photo

[Ember1]

So Kasin, I and a few other oldbie collectors remember seeing a CP sundance catalogue photo way back in the day. We have been hunting for it for a while now.
Recently, A licca collecting friend stumbled across this photo on one of the licca collecting sites. It was posted by a catalogue collector on the board.. HORRAY!

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[Carrehz]

:O Thanks for posting this! How interesting, I wonder why she was never produced (apart from that one prototype, I mean).

[Ponyland]

Yay! Finaly some paper trail to this mysterious pony!
Do you know if it was a UK catalog or a US one? My theory has been that UK should have got her with their version of megan since they kind of made the others in that pose to CP ponies...

[Ember1]

Good theory you have. The UK did produce a lot of CP poses.
Im not sure which catalogue this photo came out of.
Ill see if i can inquire to the catalogue collector on the licca board. Maybe she can answer that question.

[angelponies]

That is fantastic Em!!

[kasin]

We were not crazy!  It was so frustrating not finding this photo for so long, thank you for posting it, I will sleep well tonight! I knew I'd seen that CP  Sundance in promo material before....

..... Wonder what else was in that catalog.....

[Ponyland]

Actually I think it is possible that the picture is from an UK Argos catalog, just compare it with this pic:

https://www.pinterest.se/pin/405464772686596903/

Edit: I borrowed the pic to do a comparison for you
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 The stable and pony is placed almost exactly the same, exept for the dog is not present, the fence has been moved a little and the left bottom door is closed.

What I know Argos arranged their own photos, but that could be investigated. It could be a stock photo from Hasbro.

If you compare it with the argos page, it says "Hasbro My Little Pony Show Stable. Complete with "Lemon Drop" pony.
I would really like to know what is says about the pic with cp Sundance...

Edit again:

OK, I'm just going to tell my new and improved hypothesis LOL (since I love to try and solve mysteries, time will tell if this is proven true or not).

If this is a stock photo from Hasbro UK, and it was sent to Argos, it could be that Hasbro UK intended to do their own version of "Megans Place", except with just a cheaper reissue of the show stable in the same colors, but updated with a new pony -Sundance! (but this idea was cut)

Megans place was introduced in 1985 in North America, and Megan & Sundance was first introduced in UK in 1986.
I think this catalogue should have been around 1986. I just need to find it for my catalogue collection ^_^

[Gingerbread]

Awesome! Well done fpr spotting it. So if Argos did their own photos then there is a chance this pony is knocking about in the UK somewhere...but more likely it's a Hasbro stock photo and the pony is long gone or rotting in a box in the mysterious Hasbro Vault...

[Ponyland]

Awesome! Well done fpr spotting it. So if Argos did their own photos then there is a chance this pony is knocking about in the UK somewhere...but more likely it's a Hasbro stock photo and the pony is long gone or rotting in a box in the mysterious Hasbro Vault...

It's quite likely that it's the same prototype pony used on the pic, that Ember1 now has in her collection. The pony was "knocking about" in the UK before that if I recall correctly. Quite a few prototypes of european exclusive ponies has been found in UK, I think the creators just took their prototypes home when they were done.

[Ember1]

Here is the prototype in my collection.
She look to be the same one as in the catalogue photo.
Forlock and symbols look the same. Someone prolly just took her home and
She was saved from destruction. Hasbros policy was to destroy all prototypes.
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Great Hypothesis Ponyland.. We do know different versions of dream castle were released so why not the show stable?

[Vettefromm]

This prototype is amazing, Ember1! How has she been confirmed as a prototype?

She was saved from destruction. Hasbros policy was to destroy all prototypes.
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[Ember1]

Kasin and a few other oldbie collectors have seen the pony first hand and we dont think this prototype was mass produced. Its conceivable from the catalogue photo that it was intended to be mass produced. Perhaps there were a few CP sundances made and distributed early on? Then plans for factory production halted for whatever reason and samples destroyed. All but one so far.

My cp sundance and prototype painting time are examples of pre-production prototypes. So if she was intended to be a US or UK release judging by the catalogue photo something stopped hasbro from taking the pony into full scale factory production for distribution.

We have seen hasbro do this with other catalogue prototypes. The first tooth baby sundance comes to mind. I wish that prototype would surface.

I found an old arena post and a member mamed Karlee seemed to have some very good insight into the prototype process.

Link
http://www.mlparena.com/archive/Forums/viewtopic/t=158570.html
...............
Summarized below

karlee says

Hopefully I can shed a little light on some of the prototype process for those interested and i should state that because no one has ever really taken the time to track down MLP designers and ask these kinds of questions, most of this is based on experience with other Hasbro prototypes and from the first hand experience i have with the protos in my collection.

There were never any strict guidelines determining just how many examples were to be made for each prototype stage so there's no hard and fast rule for trying to figure this out. The general industry consensus would be that possibly one or more wax casts would be made directly from the wax sculpt. The sculpt and/or those casts would be used to create the roto molds but it's very possible that another was used to create hardcopy prototypes (resin casts made from the original wax prototypes). The hardcopies would most likely have been hand painted and used as final paint masters where one would stay in house and one would be sent to the factory. It would not have been uncommon for more than one hardcopy to be made. Once the production molds were ready, the molds would need to be tested and those resulting items are known as first or test shots. The majority of the MLP prototypes on the market are first shots.

To break it down:
First stage: wax sculpt
Second stage: hardcopy
Third stage: first shot

When it comes to collecting prototypes, it's not how many were made, but how many survived. As of now, i have yet to see any surviving wax sculpts in collections and the picture Lancer posted below is probably the only G1 hardcopy i have seen before (more on that to come). There are several first shots out there.

hathorcat wrote:
d this is how we go about getting copy and standard images before launches - sometimes the tweaks which happen during production havent been finialised by the time we need artwork or photogtaphs therefore product developers have to actually "build" the item - usually we use clay/wood or heavy plastics depending on the item - this is why sometimes the picture on an advert or on the packaing might look different than the actual product. its quicker now than we used to be; research and design to product develpment is a faster process than back in the 70s and 80s but this is an old fashioned method which has been going on for years and i assume its how hasbro will go about things. sometimes to convince a client or a marketing manager or a reseach panel that a product will sell you have to show it to them - you cant put a product into production produce 10000 bow ties and hope that little girls will just love them, you have to create 1 bow tie and pitch to an audience and creating that 1 bow tie in a studio rather than in a factory is easier and cheaper.

I would assume that Hasbro's MLP process would be quite similar to that of their other lines. The very first step for the R&D team would be to come up with ideas for new ponies in a meeting. From there these ponies would be designed as sketches and then progress to more detail art renderings known as presentation art. This art would be presented to managers and once approved, the designer would create sculpture sheets (also known as turn arounds) which show the ponies from several different angles. These sheets would go to the sculptor who would start the 3D prototyping process as outlined above.

Now, because MLPs reuse bodies and heads over and over, it could be surmised that the R&D team would have blank first shot bodies around the workshop which they could mix and match and paint up based on their newest ideas. These pieces could have been used in presentation or in catalogue and box photography. It's also plausible that because of this, the wax sculpt and hardcopy processes may have been skipped for ponies utilizing pre-existing body parts. Again, i can't see the pics above so i can't comment on them but this is certainly a plausible explanation for them.

In the vintage days, Hasbro wasn't as concerned about keeping track of prototypes as they are now. More often than not, these prototypes come from the people who were involved directly with the line. Often they kept them for their portfolios as examples of their work, simply because they liked them, to take home for their kids, or because they worked on the concepts at home. Over time, they get tucked away and come out during spring cleanings or when collectors and dealers come knocking on their doors. A lot of collectors from other hobbies spend a considerable amount of time networking with former employees which is how most vintage prototypes come to the marketplace.

G3 protos come from the factories in China, which is where the majority of the modern first shots seen on ebay from all toys lines originate. There are fairly lax security measures in the factories and stuff just happens to "walk away".

Lancer wrote:


But, unlike these three girls, she's ceramic. We figured out the ones on the pamphlets were made of plastic because of the visible neck seams, but the ones on the backcard appeared to be solid (and maybe ceramic-ish) like my baby.

Lancer, that's a GREAT piece! Are you sure it's ceramic? Is it possible that it's resin? I've not heard of ceramic being used in the production process before as it's too fragile and harder to cast. Resin seems much more likely and would fit into the process making it a hardcopy. How is the hair affixed to the head?

[Clipper]

This prototype is amazing, Ember1! How has she been confirmed as a prototype?

She was saved from destruction. Hasbros policy was to destroy all prototypes.
g[/img][/URL]
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I own a few prototypes, and they are distinctly different. From body textures, to hair and symbol colors.

I do recall that Embers CP Sundance pony has factory sewn hair, so that would indicate she has not been customized or altered in any way. From my understanding prototypes can be hand painted, as well as totally made in factory. The one Ember1 owns, for sure looks identical to the one in the catalog photograph and was found by a European source.

It may have been intended to be a UK exclusive release, and they decided to just re-release the megan and sudance as a set and not alter anything at all. Might have been cheaper for them in the long run, and they figured it would double the sale of having Lemon Drop stay in the playset, and then keeping Sundance with Megan.

 Since the G1 line information was not preserved or documented the way the newer generations are, we will never know why certain characters or designs were scratched. If former designers and employees care enough to step forward and tell the stories, or even remember we may get more answers. I doubt most of them would remember, or even care since to them it was just a job, and prototyppes weren't looked as something to be collectible or of value.

[tootie_tails]

It is very interesting to see the catalog picture. Where is it from? Has it been confirmed it's from Argos or is that just guessing?

I don't think it's the same as ember's pony though, sorry.
It's problematic that those catalog pictures look almost the same, it means they could have altered the picture. I remember another example of that, two pictures of the Grooming Parlour that look almost the same, pony altered to be Snuzzle instead of Peachy.
Also, the Sundance in the catalog picture appears to have a forelock that is much shorter than on ember's pony.

I hope you can find out more about that catalog picture. It would be great if we could see it in it's original context rather than just a cut out picture.


edit to add: the altered picture of Grooming Parlour is the box picture(?) for the parlour with Snuzzle... I think that playset actually exists, but the box picture is just edited.. it is mentioned in taffeta's website.

[Vettefromm]

Thank you Ember1 and Clipper for sharing your knowledge; I have learnt a lot! I would always be afraid a pony sold as prototype is a custom; especially if the hair looks too shiny compared to the hair used in the 80s and the body color is one that's easy to obtain. And with all the talented customizers out there today, she would be easy to fake. The factory weave is perhaps the only way to know for sure