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Author Topic: Explanation and timeline of Pierlala and Tak Rapunzel transaction  (Read 3466 times)

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Offline dragonfly

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Hi all,
I know that many of you have been following this situation, which has been going on since midsummer. I asked Tak and Pierlala both to refrain about posting publicly about the case while it was being sorted out.

It was finally resolved in early November. I am posting this as a timeline and explanation of what happened.

Tak and Pierlala were both in regular communication with myself and Hathorcat throughout this time.

The TLDR version is:
Pierlala purchased Rapunzel last summer, using Tak as a proxy. The transaction was organized on Facebook. The seller (DrEsmeRose) did not ship to Pierlala's country. Tak purchased and forwarded Rapunzel to Pierlala, who decided to return the pony. She sent it back to Tak, Tak sent her a refund, and a chargeback was filed against the refund,, which set off a long and confusing string of events with both Paypal and Tak's bank denying accountability and caused Pierlala's account to go negative in the amount of $830 USD. 

As of last month, the situation has been resolved. Arena staff are continuing to evaluate and consider whether further actions need to be taken with the members involved.

Consider yourselves pre-warned. Feedback and opinions are welcome in this thread. Accusations, blame and flames are not. The thread will be locked and you risk being put on temporary moderated status if you don't respect this.

**********************

Late July / Early August

Pierlala (in Europe) arranges to buy Rapunzel by proxy from EsmeRose via Tak (both in USA); the transaction is arranged on Facebook.

Tak buys Rapunzel from EsmeRose.
 
Pierlala pays Tak back.

EsmeRose sends Rapunzel to Tak. At this point EsmeRose is unaware that Tak is purchasing on behalf of another person and isn't the final buyer. EsmeRose is aware of, but not directly involved in, the situation going forward.

Tak sends Rapunzel to Pierlala.

Mid to Late August

Pierlala is initially happy and satisfied with Rapunzel, leading both Tak and EsmeRose to believe that the transaction is completed successfully.

After posting photos of her washed and styled hair, is told by forum members that the pony likely has a hair cut. Pierlala PMs me for advice; is advised to wait on selling her as she will have to disclose haircut to the next buyer and won't get the same price she paid back unless she waits for peak prices around the holiday season.

Pierlala does not want to wait and decides to return the pony anyway and mails  Rapunzel back to Tak.

Rapunzel is NOT sent back to EsmeRose and EsmeRose does NOT refund any money.
 
Tak refunds Pierlala and keeps Rapunzel with the intent to resell her to recoup the money that was refunded.

Tak files a chargeback against the refund.
This appears to be the one and only refund Pierlala received.

Tak states that her card charged TWICE for the refund by her card/bank (two transactions of $830) and her bank said to file a chargeback against the second refund to correct the error.

Tak initiates the chargeback and Pierlala's Paypal account is frozen with a negative balance.

The error never reflects on Pierlala's accounts aside from Paypal overdrafting her account in the amount of the chargeback for $830 and freezing her account. Something gets super messed up because Pierlala's Paypal account goes negative $830 as if a chargeback were filed against the one and only refund issued.


As far as Pierlala can see, one refund was issued, the same refund was charged back, and her account is negative frozen. At this point, she doesn't have her pony (sent it back) and she doesn't have her money.

Pierlala does NOT receive two refunds. Pierlala's account shows a record of only one refund for $830 from Tak, against which a chargeback was filed.

August to September

Tak raises hell with her bank and Paypal. Nobody can give accurate information.
We are given several dates that the money will be returned to Pierlala. The money is never returned. We are finally told it will take up to 80 days and on October 24 the money will be returned.

Both Tak and Pierlala are put on transaction restriction by Hathorcat.

During this time, Pierlala is instructed NOT to attempt to sell Rapunzel through Tak. Pierlala complies. Tak arranges to sell Rapunzel and does not notify myself or Hathorcat until the transaction is completed.  Tak does not send that money to Pierlala stating that if she does, she will have sent $1660 against the owed $830 and that is not fair. We have $830 that appears to have vanished.

Pierlala wants to purchase Tux, but cannot because her Paypal account is frozen with a negative balance. Tak is told to NOT involve herself with any further transactions purchasing ponies on behalf of Pierlala, but purchases Tux and sends to Pierlala as a gift anyway. Pierlala claims to have been unaware that she's been restricted from conducting transactions on the Arena. 

Tak continues to be in communication with her bank and Paypal daily. She is given a number of dates the situation will be resolved, all of which pass with no change. Pierlala calls Paypal and is stonewalled in her attempts to get any information but is told that she is responsible for repaying her negative balance.

October to November
Tak retains a lawyer, who advises her going forward, including advice to step out of the situation.

Paypal continues to provide Tak and her bank with false / inaccurate information about when the money will be returned and where it is. Paypal continues to stonewall Pierlala's inquiries with them.

The money is not returned on October 24 as Paypal communicated it would be.
The money is returned to Pierlala in early November and her Paypal account is restored.

After the fact, both Paypal and Tak's bank confirm that Paypal had received the money in early August.

No reason was provided for Paypal's failure to correct Pierlala's negative balance and insistence that she is responsible to reimburse them for the full amount of the chargeback.

No answer is provided as to why Tak's card was charged a second for a "ghost" transaction to Pierlala that did not reflect in Pierlala's account but the chargeback and penalties were still applied to the first, correct refund transaction.

Offline wystearya

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Re: Explanation and timeline of Pierlala and Tak Rapunzel transaction
« Reply #1 on: December 13, 2016, 08:50:39 AM »
If I may ask:

Is there still a negative balance?  Or is the money accounted for now?

----------------------

I was curious about a quickly removed post the other day.  Thanks for clearing the issue up.

Offline little.fox

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Re: Explanation and timeline of Pierlala and Tak Rapunzel transaction
« Reply #2 on: December 13, 2016, 09:48:30 AM »
This sounds like such a mess, and I'm glad it's all resolved now, and I hope both Tak an Pierlala has learned something from this.

I have to say, I'm so unimpressed with PayPal over this situation, it really puts them in a different light. I'm contemplating withdrawing my balance.  :mad:

Offline Tak

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Re: Explanation and timeline of Pierlala and Tak Rapunzel transaction
« Reply #3 on: December 13, 2016, 10:53:46 AM »
I'm not a seasoned PayPal user. After this situation was already completed on my side, I was told by a few other users that this sometimes happens with PayPal and that you should only initiate the chargeback if the second charge comes out of pending status. I'm also not going to be so enthusiastic about being a go between. Live and learn. I sincerely hope that this comment be allowed.

Offline LadyMoondancer

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Re: Explanation and timeline of Pierlala and Tak Rapunzel transaction
« Reply #4 on: December 13, 2016, 06:21:16 PM »
Good old Paypal, always ready to make the situation worse.  Sounds to me like they were simply trying to pocket $830. Does anyone know of a different, more reliable online payment option (that's widely accepted)?
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Offline Tak

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Re: Explanation and timeline of Pierlala and Tak Rapunzel transaction
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2016, 07:41:35 PM »
Good old Paypal, always ready to make the situation worse.  Sounds to me like they were simply trying to pocket $830. Does anyone know of a different, more reliable online payment option (that's widely accepted)?

If you find one, please let me know. I couldn't.

Offline Taxel

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Re: Explanation and timeline of Pierlala and Tak Rapunzel transaction
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2016, 09:13:16 PM »
Good old Paypal, always ready to make the situation worse.  Sounds to me like they were simply trying to pocket $830. Does anyone know of a different, more reliable online payment option (that's widely accepted)?

I don't think one exists. Last I heard PP still has a total monopoly.

You could possibly protect yourself to some degree by not linking a bank account (if that's even allowed anymore, I don't know) and only filling your account with Paypal or Visa gift cards.
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Re: Explanation and timeline of Pierlala and Tak Rapunzel transaction
« Reply #7 on: December 13, 2016, 09:26:40 PM »
Good old Paypal, always ready to make the situation worse.  Sounds to me like they were simply trying to pocket $830. Does anyone know of a different, more reliable online payment option (that's widely accepted)?

I don't think one exists. Last I heard PP still has a total monopoly.

You could possibly protect yourself to some degree by not linking a bank account (if that's even allowed anymore, I don't know) and only filling your account with Paypal or Visa gift cards.

I link and unlink my bank account based on when I need to move money from Paypal to my bank. Otherwise I keep it unlinked. Too many this was supposed to go on my credit card and it defaulted to my bank overdrafts.

Offline Stormness_1

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Re: Explanation and timeline of Pierlala and Tak Rapunzel transaction
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2016, 02:44:13 AM »
Urgh... I hate paypal. But, unfortunately, there is no other safe method- I searched in vain when my first account was closed, apparently because someone else tried to add my CC number to their account and they couldn't contact me - not that I ever got any kind of notification until they irreversibly closed my account. There was apparently a banner on my account when I logged in, but I was on a buying hiatus, and hadn't logged in in forever.

On a side note, buying by proxy is tough. I've only ever been the 'middle man', so I can sympathise. But I do things a little differently. I get the buyer to add my address in their paypal(to cover the seller), and pay themselves, with the item/s shipped to their name, care of mine at my address. So what my package would have looked like would be:

End Buyer
c/o 'middle man'
123 pony way (middle man's address)
Ponyland.

Then the end buyer sends exact payment for shipping to the middle man to send the package along. That way the middle man has zero expenditure, and any returns can ship straight back to seller, as it was their paypal that paid, so refunds are straightforward.

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Re: Explanation and timeline of Pierlala and Tak Rapunzel transaction
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2016, 04:13:04 PM »
This happened to me when selling a BJD. After a month had passed the buyer opened a case on PayPal. When I contacted them they told me they had been charged twice on their card for the one transaction. From what I understand it actually charged them twice and wasn't just pending. I was able to talk to PayPal and they cleared things up within a week. I do not know if the buyer was ever able to get the second charge removed. How frustraiting for it to have taken so long for you guys.
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Offline Galactica

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Re: Explanation and timeline of Pierlala and Tak Rapunzel transaction
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2016, 04:42:29 PM »
Wow, what a disaster.  Paypal really made a difficult situation so much worse.

Seems like proxy buying is also rife with risk/possibility of disaster.

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Re: Explanation and timeline of Pierlala and Tak Rapunzel transaction
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2016, 04:55:26 PM »
A very similar scenario occurred with me, over several THOUSAND dollars, and that's why I can't have a Paypal account anymore. 

Paypal took their money from the credit card we provided, then reversed it (though it still showed on the card!) then took from the joint bank account.  The bank account went $0.43 into "overdraft" because they process the largest transactions FIRST, so our bank locked our accounts, charged every service fee they could think of, and refused to help us figure out things on the Paypal end due to "privacy concerns".  JOINT bank account guys!  You can tell either of us anything about that account! 

Paypal never explained why they "ghosted" a second charge through our CC - which by the way, WAS charged (as well as our bank account), nor did we ever receive any refund, explanation or apology.  All they could do was tell us, "If you are unhappy with our services, we recommend de-activating your Paypal account.  Then you won't be able to use it.  That should solve your problem!"   

If I TRIED to open a new one, Paypal would immediately ban the account as we are on their "blacklist" to NEVER open an account in our names AGAIN.  Because we cannot trust Paypal.  :(  Of course they think it's OUR personal problem and they were happy to blame the bank too, but yeah?  Paypal?  You STOLE at least $1000 from us!  I will NEVER forgive that! 
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Re: Explanation and timeline of Pierlala and Tak Rapunzel transaction
« Reply #12 on: December 15, 2016, 03:46:46 AM »
Good old Paypal, always ready to make the situation worse.  Sounds to me like they were simply trying to pocket $830. Does anyone know of a different, more reliable online payment option (that's widely accepted)?

If you find one, please let me know. I couldn't.

Isn't there something called Google Wallet that sends money? I think it's relatively new and the first thing that comes up on a google search is "Is Google Wallet safe?", but I think it does the same thing as PayPal. I don't think it's available in all countries though, so wouldn't have worked in this particular situation.

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Re: Explanation and timeline of Pierlala and Tak Rapunzel transaction
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2016, 05:12:36 AM »
This became such a mess and a really difficult situation for everyone involved. I'm glad that it is all finally resolved :whew:
I wouldn't recommend being a middle man TBH. I've done it for friends but usually only close friends I know I trust if anything goes wrong because there is so much that can go wrong  as you can see from this issue here  :yikes: .  I've helped people out with ebay items internationally too but even then it can be risky so there are a few things I do in those cases to protect myself as much as possible.

There can be problems with the item, problems with the PO, problems with refunds/returns or paypal, missing packages, customs issues... those are just a few things I can think of off the top of my head which can be a pain to resolve where there are just the buyer and seller involved, it becomes even harder if there is a third person in between. There was even a case here where a tracked item and signed for pony went MIA . It was an international transaction and the member who was the middle man got into into a whole lot of issues there too and neither PO in either country wanted to accept the blame and pay the compensation from what I remember.
I know its nice to do members a favour but as far as being a middleman is concerned if you consider buying something for someone else please be aware of all the potential things that could go wrong. :awake:

Paypal can be a real pain too -and drag things out for months. I'm really sorry to read what happened to you as well LBS  :(  unfortunately I still think that there aren't many options that are as good or better than paypal though
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Re: Explanation and timeline of Pierlala and Tak Rapunzel transaction
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2016, 05:30:00 AM »
Good old Paypal, always ready to make the situation worse.  Sounds to me like they were simply trying to pocket $830. Does anyone know of a different, more reliable online payment option (that's widely accepted)?

If you find one, please let me know. I couldn't.

Isn't there something called Google Wallet that sends money? I think it's relatively new and the first thing that comes up on a google search is "Is Google Wallet safe?", but I think it does the same thing as PayPal. I don't think it's available in all countries though, so wouldn't have worked in this particular situation.

I thought Wallet was closing? Some site I'm on made a big deal about Wallet closing or something so they stopped accepting payments with it. Does anyone else know any more about this?

I also know of Braintree and Stripe. I've only ever heard of Braintree on one site, so I'm very skeptical about it, and from what little I've heard of Stripe, I wouldn't trust it. Stripe seems even shadier than Paypal. (But that's from a seller's perspective.)
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