Why does international shipping have to be a pain?

[DazzleKitty]

It is a pain. I will do it, but never without getting a quote first. I've had people make me offers for something with shipping and it turns out shipping actually cost more than what the item was worth. But as a seller who didn't get a quote, I ate my losses. It's a lot of work. I can usually accurately guestimate US shipping costs, but international is hard.

[Taffeta]

I accept that I'm losing customers. It does suck for both of us. So I hate it when people take it personally, as if I'm saying I hate their country by not shipping to them....the 20-40 minutes in the PO on a Saturday TWO cities over just isn't worth it to an occasional individual seller.

It is quite personal, if you say it 'isn't worth it' to get a pony to a collector who may not be able to get that pony in their country. It's a frustration and a way of excluding people based on location that I have always hated.

Honestly, I also dislike the justifications for it. I can deal more with people who just say, "I don't ship internationally". That's a choice.  When you start adding in things like "It's not worth it" or "it might go missing", then you start implying things about international shipping locations that aren't necessarily justified. Things rarely do go missing. We are trustworthy. You said yourself you never had issues. So those things don't need to be said. They're not actually accurate. You also don't have to justify it. It's your choice. You just have to say that you don't want to, and end of problem.

I think that it becomes personally offensive because people feel the need to make reasons for not shipping internationally rather than just saying, "I don't want to" and leaving it at that. "I don't want to" makes people think they sound mean and nasty, but honestly? Saying it's hassle, not worth it and it might go missing is more offensive. Because "I don't want to" is your choice. The other things are like its the buyer's fault for being in an international location, and that's when it gets insulting.

So I suggest in future you just put, "I don't want to ship internationally" and leave it at that.  Sometimes less is more. It's not about the buyer being in an international location, but the seller not wanting to take on the extra work to ship to them. It's a seller thing, not a buyer thing. I think you'll find people take it less personally if you don't make out like their living in another country makes them somehow shady or too much trouble, but that it's just something you have chosen not to do.

[Taxel]

How is it personally offensive that people don't want to spend hours and hours trying to deal with international shipping? That's a ridiculous notion. It is a HUGE pain in the USA. It doesn't mean that sellers hate you or your country or consider you and others in your country untrustworthy. Assuming that is making a very, very huge leap.

A lot of non-US buyers (not necessarily in ponies, but in general sales) don't even understand customs and get furious at the "extra charge" they have to pay, blaming the seller for being dishonest/cheating them/etc. Buyers don't always understand that yes, that insane shipping price is the real actual price and not something inflated so the seller can make a quick buck. Its not worth the time, effort, and potential trouble/bad feedback for a very minimal amount of money for some people (not just on the Arena but in general) and there's nothing wrong with that.

It sucks some people can't buy Pony A from Sally, but there's plenty of other ways to get things. Buy from a different seller, go to eBay, make a friend you trade or "swap" sales with to get exclusives, etc.

And honestly, this is a topic about why and how its a pain. Of course people will give their reasons here. If they upset you that much, just don't read them.

[Noxxbunny]

How is it personally offensive that people don't want to spend hours and hours trying to deal with international shipping? That's a ridiculous notion. It is a HUGE pain in the USA. It doesn't mean that sellers hate you or your country or consider you and others in your country untrustworthy. Assuming that is making a very, very huge leap.

A lot of non-US buyers (not necessarily in ponies, but in general sales) don't even understand customs and get furious at the "extra charge" they have to pay, blaming the seller for being dishonest/cheating them/etc. Buyers don't always understand that yes, that insane shipping price is the real actual price and not something inflated so the seller can make a quick buck. Its not worth the time, effort, and potential trouble/bad feedback for a very minimal amount of money for some people (not just on the Arena but in general) and there's nothing wrong with that.

It sucks some people can't buy Pony A from Sally, but there's plenty of other ways to get things. Buy from a different seller, go to eBay, make a friend you trade or "swap" sales with to get exclusives, etc.

And honestly, this is a topic about why and how its a pain. Of course people will give their reasons here. If they upset you that much, just don't read them.

All of this. Said it better than I could have.

[kasin]

My family is dual US/Canadian. My mother and her family are born and raised Germans. My husband is from HK. I obviously have no negative feelings for any of these countries or their cultures. That said....

Countries I have had packages lost or destroyed as a buyer or as a seller:
Canada (both lost and destroyed)
Italy (lost)
Hong Kong (I think it was US post that crushed this one, normally they are one of the better ones)
US (lost and destroyed)
Netherlands (destroyed)
Germany (lost)
UK (lost)

I still ship international (Note domestic US is on my list) but I completely understand why people don't and on eBay I normally don't bother because I'm lazy honestly. on here I feel more connection to the people and more flexibility than on eBay, most of my transactions here are international and I might even prefer international because it's more fun to send and receive.

all I'm saying is don't take it personally.

[Khayman81]

For me, what is hard to understand it is why some charges are so, and I mean really that much, high, when others, for the same country or city are less.
And that goes for the domestic shipping too.
Regarding international I can understand that people don't know, don't like or just simply don't do it. As it has been said before, there's always a way to find a solution.
But you must agree that some shipping costs, on eBay, are just ridiculously high. When I started using eBay my cousin told me, never to buy from Italy, cause it always gets lost (and he is Italian!), that the sending from UK took a lot longer than from US (which is not true, even if the US are just a week away) and to be careful with the shipping costs, since many people used to charge them higher so that they could make profit about it. I have seen some sales on eBay that prooved me it is true. Selling a pony 5€ plus 25€ on shipping is weird, and that within Europe.

[banditpony]

But you must agree that some shipping costs, on eBay, are just ridiculously high. When I started using eBay my cousin told me, never to buy from Italy, caise it always gets lost (and he is Italian!), that the sending from UK took a lot longer than from US (which is not true, even if the US are just a week away) and to be careful with the shipping costs, since many people used to charge them higher so that they could make profit about it. I have seen some sales on eBay that prooved me it is true. Selling a pony 5€ plus 25€ on shipping is weird, and that within Europe.

Some prices are high because that is the cost of shipping. International Priority mail STARTS at $40+. No profit made.

eBay tried to curb profit on shipping by giving it a 10% fee. :/ Which in turn made sellers have to charge a bit more so they weren't losing money.

[Khayman81]

Of course I know most of the people don't make profit and international mail is expensive, but I have seen domestic mail that goes as high as international just because it is like that. Here priority mail is around 7€ and some people charges up to 40€ for the same good and in the same conditions. And there are no custom costs... so I guess for i ternatiknal it would be impossible.

[h1m3.]

I have seen some sales on eBay that prooved me it is true. Selling a pony 5€ plus 25€ on shipping is weird, and that within Europe.

I think it is sometimes ebays "Customs services and international tracking provided" which makes it higher shipping cost and usually it takes super long to arrive even within EU/European (some reason it will make detour between countries..).. It is like ~10€ more using that custom stuff inside EU and ~20€ more if it from US..

[Taffeta]

How is it personally offensive that people don't want to spend hours and hours trying to deal with international shipping? That's a ridiculous notion. It is a HUGE pain in the USA. It doesn't mean that sellers hate you or your country or consider you and others in your country untrustworthy. Assuming that is making a very, very huge leap.

A lot of non-US buyers (not necessarily in ponies, but in general sales) don't even understand customs and get furious at the "extra charge" they have to pay, blaming the seller for being dishonest/cheating them/etc. Buyers don't always understand that yes, that insane shipping price is the real actual price and not something inflated so the seller can make a quick buck. Its not worth the time, effort, and potential trouble/bad feedback for a very minimal amount of money for some people (not just on the Arena but in general) and there's nothing wrong with that.

It sucks some people can't buy Pony A from Sally, but there's plenty of other ways to get things. Buy from a different seller, go to eBay, make a friend you trade or "swap" sales with to get exclusives, etc.

And honestly, this is a topic about why and how its a pain. Of course people will give their reasons here. If they upset you that much, just don't read them.

As I said before, it's up to you where you ship. I'm not trying to tell you to change your policy. But what this thread has actually become is a forum for Americans to complain about everywhere else in the world. I think that's harsh and I'm not afraid to say so.

I've done a ton of dealing with the US over the years, and I have had US people help me out on auctions and items in the past. I know from those US people that it's not as tough to ship abroad as this thread makes out. Certainly it's no more tough to ship abroad than it is to ship abroad from where I am, in the UK. And as I do it without an issue, I find it hard to empathise with anyone who says a buyer is too much hassle because of where they are, not their track record.

It makes me sad because I've been in the community a long time. In the bad old days, this was the general attitude. There were so few international people that hardly anyone shipped abroad and there was no protection anyway. Now there is a ton of protection. Tracking. The US system is amazing because you get automatic tracking numbers on international packages. I think you actually don't realise how lucky you are, but that's kind of natural, because unless you look at it from outside, you can't see it that way.

With the custom fees, I agree that there are people who don't know. But this goes both ways. I've had American sellers put up the price on a custom form to what they think an item is worth rather than the price I paid for it. So that's as much custom fraud as is putting the gift box. I think what you don't realise is that even if I send something somewhere other than the US, this custom fee thing can happen. It isn't exclusively a problem between the US and outside. I think that's my main beef with this post. Shipping internationally is more work, I think we can all agree that. But that isn't a truth limited to the US system - abroad. It's a global one, from all locations.

In my experience, though, more non-US people understand the rules around custom fees than US people do, because we deal with it and the US don't have to. So I think you're talking about a minority of newer buyers, not the vast majority.

If I am honest, I have had the most trouble over the years shipping to the US. But that is not because more US people have been difficult. It's because over the years I've shipped more items to the US overall. I've never had anything go missing, yet (touch wood) but I have been sent US postal orders, I've had US buyers harass me if the item doesn't arrive within 4 days, and a bunch of other basic things which I imagine are just as annoying as sending an item to someone and then getting yelled at about custom fees that aren't your fault.

But the difference is that if someone in the US causes me a problem, I stop shipping to that person. The US is a huge country. If I decided all US people were too much hassle to send to because one of them had a bad day, then that'd be really stupid in my opinion. I totally understand choosing not to ship to individuals who are troublesome or have annoyed you in the past, but sweeping out whole locations (and in this case, the whole world) based on a few very sparse examples is, to me, kind of rude.

It is your right to ship where you like, and I'm not trying to change that. All I am trying to do is paint the picture from the other side of this fence. It would be deeply offensive of me if I made a post deciding not to ship to the US because of those very few negative experiences over the last 18 years. You have to realise that it is the same from our point of view.

I actually really dislike when it becomes a US/global divide. International means everywhere. It's an inclusive term. I'd really like to stop seeing it used to divide people. In the past, the US was the pony community, with a few of us from outside. That's not the case now. There are so many people here who are not in the US, it's actually easy enough to bypass US sellers for things if those sellers don't want to ship abroad. So it's not so much of a logistical problem as it used to be. It's just very sad to me in terms of the attitude, having seen the community open up, that now it's closing up and separating itself out again along this same line.

The community is a community and it shouldn't be this divisive based on location. The great side of this community is when people are looking for ponies and items only available in certain locations and people go to trouble to pick them up from stores and sell them at cost and shipping. This thread is the more negative side of the community, when helping out someone else in another place is simply too much trouble. There are a few people who genuinely have problems with shipping for whatever reason, but they are the minority.

Summarised, I am not offended that you won't ship to me. That's your call. I'm offended at the rationale behind it, that makes out that it's our fault for being where we are, not your choice based on what you want to handle. You're the seller, you make the rules. You are also responsible for those rules, and it's not the buyer's fault if they live in the wrong place.

[Taxel]

Please stop making assumptions about me. I know what customs are. I know they apply to many countries, and even the US in some rare cases. Do not assume I'm uninformed and don't know what I'm talking about because I'm from the US.

I'm not even going to finish reading your post since you think its fine to make assumptions about people based on what countries they ship to. This was started as a thread for Americans to complain about the US postal system's issues and annoyances with shipping to other countries. If those problems are so offensive to you when Americans discuss them why did you even open this thread? No one here is hating on your country or anyone else's. This is not a world-bashing thread and its ridiculous to claim it is like we're hating on every other country. We're not.

People don't have to spend hours and hours on shipping packages to you. Some people have lives and jobs that literally make it impossible. Please stop taking where people ship and their reasons for that choice personally. Its not about you as a person or your country or whatever others leaps you're making. Its nice that you'll ship anywhere but not everyone is able to offer that, period, and any reason they have for that is perfectly acceptable.

[kasin]

Honestly Taffeta US eBay defaults to domestic shipping only and we are a big enough country that it's normally "good enough". alot of people don't realize or care. Our international shipping has lost its cheap option (about a year ago) and eBay s new global shipping leaves alot to be desired, so many of us just don't bother. on eBay I'm that person, but if someone messages me I will update so they can bid because they obviously care enough to contact me (which matters! And I do this on UK and German eBay too if I want something enough)

Please don't assume anything because of my lazy eBay listings, I have people from 4 countries regularly shipping to my address or having me shop for them and Canada I have a whole model horse club shipping here ( big + fragile + super picky collectors = lots of liability and space in my home!). I'm willing to do the work, but not on faceless eBay where people are frequently rude or irrational  (regardless of location). I'd also point out that if I can, I save my Euro' shipments for when I go up to Canada because Canada post is much better for shipping to Europe.

If you would like, please PM me, I'm more than happy to help you out with shipping addresses including the US and our network can always use a reliable UK address because we get blocked from bidding on UK auctions frequently.

**edit to cut volume.

[Taffeta]

You know, when it gets to the point when you start talking down to me because I'm not an American, I think it's time that moderation got involved. All I'm going to do is clarify so that I know I'm not misunderstood.

This was started as a thread for Americans to complain about the US postal system's issues and annoyances with shipping to other countries.

No it wasn't. The original poster was complaining about the postal system. Not about the people in other places that might be buying items. And nor was anyone else in the thread except for you.

If those problems are so offensive to you when Americans discuss them why did you even open this thread?

The thread is titled "why is International shipping a pain"? This is not a US only thread, there is nothing in the thread title to debar me from posting, and if anyone did post a US only thread which was there to bash foreign buyers, I think it would be shut down pretty quick, because that kind of xenophobia is not encouraged on global forums like the Arena.

Besides, not everyone discussing was an American.

You made some assumptions I didn't like:

A lot of non-US buyers (not necessarily in ponies, but in general sales) don't even understand customs and get furious at the "extra charge" they have to pay, blaming the seller for being dishonest/cheating them/etc. Buyers don't always understand that yes, that insane shipping price is the real actual price and not something inflated so the seller can make a quick buck.

Anyone who deals online knows that those things can also apply to buyers in the US to sellers in other places, and even buyers in the US to sellers in the US. You made it about Non-US people only, but the reality is there are good and bad people everywhere.

You then claimed I made assumptions about you:

Please stop making assumptions about me. I know what customs are. I know they apply to many countries, and even the US in some rare cases. Do not assume I'm uninformed and don't know what I'm talking about because I'm from the US.

Again, you are mistaken. I said this:

. I think what you don't realise is that even if I send something somewhere other than the US, this custom fee thing can happen. It isn't exclusively a problem between the US and outside.

If you misread the bolded section, I was saying that you don't realise that when I send to a country which have custom fees, I can also be stung by a buyer complaining about charges just the same as someone in the US can. It's not just something US sellers experience. That was all I said. At no point did I - or have I - insulted you as a person on any level.

 People who choose to ship only to the US don't damage anyone by not shipping globally. But they do damage our reputations when they spread generalised lies about our honesty and the risks involved. For that reason and that reason alone I got involved in this discussion. All countries have troublesome buyers. All locations have postal issues and hassles. It's something we all face. Instead of trying to put dividing lines between us, isn't it more constructive to see the things that we have in common and share those? That is what International really means. That's what it should mean.

 I don't want people considering whether or not to ship abroad to be put off by someone telling them that most people outside the US are ignorant and troublesome to deal with. People get made scared by claims like that about the unknown outside world, especially if they are new to trading and don't know what the shipping situation is like. Your reason for not shipping abroad is that you find it hassle. That's fine, but it has nothing to do with the honesty or the behaviour of the buyer, wherever they are located. Those things are down to individual people, not geographical locations. That is my point and has always been my point and will continue to be my point for the forseeable future.

@ Kasin - I'm not judging you at all. I actually respect you for your honesty. As I said before, where you ship is a choice. I only get annoyed when people try to make out non-US folk are somehow bad or shady or inexperienced or ignorant or troublesome in a way that doesn't apply to people in the US. I think we all know that people are people everywhere and some good, some bad exist in all places. International is not a divisive word and should stop being used as one, that's all.

And I appreciate your offer, but right now my situation is a bit crazy anyway. I am between two places because of my study and that means that even if I did take in items, it would be my parents who had to deal with them mostly and I wouldn't be able to ship them on within a short time frame. It's not possible right now so I don't act as a middleman any more. I appreciate the sentiment, though. I think that a lot more things like that make a lot more constructive sense than some of the other things that have been banded about.

[Vertefae]

No one has called non Americans ignorant. My goodness theres a lot of hurt feelings around this thread.

Honestly shipping internationally is a pain. I'll do it if I have to, but I prefer not too. Most people cringe at priority prices, which is the only way I will ship internationally. It is a hassle to deal with customs forms. Especially if you don't ship internationally often.

I would never belittle someone for their reasins for not shipping or shipping internationally. I'm sad to see honesty being met with such hostility.

[Taxel]

From the OP:

How do other US sellers deal with mailing internationally? What problems do you encounter?

Yes, this is a thread that was started about sellers in the USA dealing with shipping internationally and the US postal system. (Bolding mine.)

I wasn't even going to respond again but this is too far. Do not accuse me (or anyone else here) of being xenophobic. Absolutely no one here has bashed international buyers, people from other countries, or other countries themselves. These are typical concerns and problems talked about every single day in Trader Support. Discussing them has never been an issue before; its the entire point of this sub-forum. The leaps and assumptions you're making about the character of the Americans in this thread for not shipping internationally are extremely out of line.

Obviously people from other countries or with experience shipping with multiple countries' postal systems are welcome to, and have, commented. Its interesting to get their POVs and see how international shipping can also be a pain (or not quite so difficult) abroad. But if a thread about Americans discussing their postal system and the problems they encounter when shipping internationally is so personally offensive to you, that single line in the first post is enough to let you know to stop reading.

If you would like to discuss shipping in non-American countries only you're welcome to make your own thread.