Problems with Tak and Pierlala

[Tak]

I'll just add what I posted in the other thread.

It's probably best if this thread is merged with the other rather than having 2 different threads about the same issue.

It seems like the biggest problem in the entire situation is communication and lack of patience.

A return needs to be worked out with a seller no matter what the circumstances. If the return via Paypal came about because Tak called her credit card company & made a charge-back claim, that's a serious problem. A charge-back claim is to be used for fraud, not simply wanting to return an item. If that is the case, the swiftness of Paypal's response makes a lot more sense now.

It seems like this should be looked at as 2 separate transactions:
1. a sale from Dr EsmeRose to Tak
2. a sale from Tak to Pierlala

After getting the 3 sides of the story, it seems less like a middleman situation, and more like one person bought something to sell at cost to another person.

This /\

I agree after reading everything.

This is why I take responsibility for the mistakes and made it right with both DrEsmeRose and Pierlala financially as soon as possible. As far as the chargeback, I was told "why don't you just do a chargeback?" When I was having trouble getting in contact with the seller. My card company did say it's just fine to do one if the product doesn't match the description. I decided to try PayPal instead after reading PayPal's description of chargebacks. The seller refused the return and I escalated the claim. They said return the pony and get a refund. I got paid a day early by happy accident so I sent Pierlala her refund after she gave me the tracking number of the shipped pony. I also was finally able to get in contact with the seller. Embarrassing for me my tablet had some updates and I didn't know how to use them yet, so had been out of contact. The seller and I chatted. I got to see the original pictures again and decided that she was in the right and it would be intolerable for me to expect a refund, especially when she was unaware that I was a go between. I immediately called PayPal to make sure they would clear her name. Money isn't worth integrity. You can run out of money, but you can't run out of integrity. I did the very best I could to make the situation right buy both buyer and seller.

Post Merge: August 02, 2016, 08:10:15 PM

What a mess!

I feel bad for everyone involved. 

Just...what a mess!

You can say that again! 

[Em_L._Pea_Customs]

Convoluted, international transactions involving multiple people, with strangers loaning large sums of money out, and a minimum of discussion/disclosure of all parties involved, are probably not ever going to end well.       

[Tak]

Convoluted, international transactions involving multiple people, with strangers loaning large sums of money out, and a minimum of discussion/disclosure of all parties involved, are probably not ever going to end well.     

Dang, where were you before I got myself into this.    honestly

[Taxel]

This is why I take responsibility for the mistakes and made it right with both DrEsmeRose and Pierlala financially as soon as possible. As far as the chargeback, I was told "why don't you just do a chargeback?" When I was having trouble getting in contact with the seller. My card company did say it's just fine to do one if the product doesn't match the description.

Okay, see Tak, the problem with this is that the pony DID match her description. You didn't ask for more details or know what to look for. That's on you, not the seller. That does not make their description wrong. You even said the pony was fine and approved her.

Chargebacks are a BIG deal and should not be filed willy-nilly like that.

[thesugarpuppie]

After reading everything, it really looks like Tak was eager to send someone a surprise but didn't wait to hear back.  It also looks like Pierlala may have felt pressured to hurry and buy when she wasn't sure.  However when in doubt, wait.  This goes for both the gifter and receiver.

And considering that all sides had yet to be heard, I don't know if she'd (Pierlala) have felt as though anyone would have believed what she had to say with some of the comments I've read tonight.  I don't know any of these ladies, but I think that things could have been handled better.

Tak, though you said you won't worry about it anymore and were in your heart doing a good thing; if someone tells you they can't pay yet and it's a large sum of money like that (still don't get how some of these ponies are so expensive) then wait.  It would have also been a good idea to be forthright about the pony being a "gift" for the seller's sake so that she could make arrangements.  A chargeback is not the same as a paypal dispute which can affect the status of a paypal account. I mean in terms of monetary holds which can last for at least two months. 

Pierlala, your wants may have been a bit bigger than your wallet at the time.  You knew you wanted this pony and that it was expensive.  It would make more sense to be saving bit by bit to just buy it outright than to wait on the money and have someone buy for you.  I say this not to judge, but as someone with limited funds herself who has learned to make do or do without.  I also have asked someone to buy something for me as part of larger trade which thankfully worked out for both of us, but I worried that I might have been taking advantage.
It also would have made sense for you to either insist on speaking with the seller directly or waiting for another Rapunzel.  Like everyone has said, you styled her, so she was yours.  It didn't matter if someone else swayed your opinion on her appearance because you practically said she was yours for keeps when you did that.  It's the reason why hair is also described in sales posts; so that buyers can know what condition a pony's hair is in and gauge what has been done to it.  So the fact that you found a "better one" has nothing to do with the seller.
 
DrEsmeRose, you're clearly in the right in the situation and I'm glad its been worked out for you or in the process of it anyway.

[Tak]

This is why I take responsibility for the mistakes and made it right with both DrEsmeRose and Pierlala financially as soon as possible. As far as the chargeback, I was told "why don't you just do a chargeback?" When I was having trouble getting in contact with the seller. My card company did say it's just fine to do one if the product doesn't match the description.

Okay, see Tak, the problem with this is that the pony DID match her description. You didn't ask for more details or know what to look for. That's on you, not the seller. That does not make their description wrong. You even said the pony was fine and approved her.

Chargebacks are a BIG deal and should not be filed willy-nilly like that.

I do realize that. To my knowledge there was no chargeback authorized. I decided not to. It would have been wrong. I'm not used to having a credit card. I was told to"just do a chargeback so I could get the money faster". PayPal said they were something a bank does. I did talk to my bank and didn't start one. There was no way she was going to get money back in time for what she wanted no matter what I did. I chose to contact through PayPal.

I cannot express enough how badly I feel for how DrEsme ended up being treated. If she were to choose to keep the pony when she receives it, it would be my just desserts for my mistakes. Not enough questions, not finding a way to put them in direct contact, and caving at the whims of the buyer's desire to return. All of this is why they both have money and I do not. I would like this thread locked. All parties involved have said the same thing over and over.

Yes I was wrong.

Post Merge: August 02, 2016, 08:53:03 PM

One more thing before I don't sleep. I've spoken to Pierlala and don't blame her. I've encouraged her to post her perspective, which she did, and I'm trying to keep the her from leaving the group because of my mistakes. Everyone said that it is not my responsibility, but IT IS. I was the only one getting all the info. I was never asked to loan money. I'm known for my lack of patience. My fault.

[Vertefae]

So what about the ponies Pierlala sent in trade to Tak?

[hathorcat]

Ok. I don't want to shut this down because everyone is so involved but guys there are a few too many voices here on this right now.

This was a Facebook transaction which has now been brought here so unfortunately we are going to go by our rules and the rules imposed by PayPal.

I personally do not like the way the return has been dealt with but that's a personal decision every party involved has to take some ownership.

Any one who uses PayPals service to receive money in exchange for goods has to accept that their buyer has up to 180 days return something. That holds true for everyone in this chain. You may not like it and it may not feel right but that is the only reasonable way out of this.

We cannot force pierlala to keep the pony as PayPal will allow her to return it. Likewise we cannot expect tak to keep it as paypal will also allow her to return it. We cannot force anyone to do anything except look at their conscious and think about a fair decision on all other members. Everyone is going to be out money on this. Thats the danger with dealing on facebook and other Internet sites where you don't really know who you are talking to or how they do business. This thread has made one member of the process jump in and take all financial responsibility. . Sometimes that's what shouting at people will do. So I think we all need to think what we would do if we were the buyer or the seller.

If every party right now feels what they have done is fair on the other people in the process them we can't ask any more of them. Just point out that this thread is forever going to exist and therefore people will read it and decide for themselves. Try to be fair to your buyer and try to be fair to your seller.

[Tak]

So what about the ponies Pierlala sent in trade to Tak?

She sent them in exchange for shipping. I wasn't comfortable shipping without tracking and that can get spendy overseas. She was trying to sell the ponies for rapunzel funds anyway.

Post Merge: August 03, 2016, 09:52:26 AM

Very well said hathorcat. 

[kasin]

I'm really sorry to read this thread, Ill hold my opinions and hope everyone involved is satisfied by whatever the final resolution is.

What I do want to say is that I very much hope everyone knows that middlemen and networks of friends/collectors can work and can still be a wonderful thing. There are safety measurers that should be taken, communication is vital and everyone involved needs to understand their part and take responsibility but honestly some of the most fun and rewarding experiences I've had as a collector has been from collaboration and networking, so it kills me to see a thread like this.

Not trying to hijack this topic, but dident want it to leave the impression that networks or middlemen arrangments have to end badly.

[dragonfly]

I'm really sorry to read this thread, Ill hold my opinions and hope everyone involved is satisfied by whatever the final resolution is.

What I do want to say is that I very much hope everyone knows that middlemen and networks of friends/collectors can work and can still be a wonderful thing. There are safety measurers that should be taken, communication is vital and everyone involved needs to understand their part and take responsibility but honestly some of the most fun and rewarding experiences I've had as a collector has been from collaboration and networking, so it kills me to see a thread like this.

Not trying to hijack this topic, but dident want it to leave the impression that networks or middlemen arrangments have to end badly.

No, this is a very good point. But you've got to know your trading partners. There was a huge communication  breakdown in this particular transaction and usually, sellers are made aware of when they are working with a third party.
Plus, the third party is really only used to receive items and ship them to their final destination. I have never heard of that person making payment for a pony on behalf of another like this before.

For this transaction, as far as the seller was concerned, the sale was completed successfully when she heard that the pony was received and the buyer was satisfied. Not only did Tak message her directly of satisfaction, but Pierlala confirmed satisfaction on here and in her brag thread and buyer's remorse struck once she realized the mane was cut, probably exacerbated by the knowledge that the price was on the high end for Rapunzel to begin with and having had to pay €200 import duties.

The pony should never have been returned in the first place. I requested, but did not see, the original FB sales post to verify whether or not the item was mis-represented. It sounds like the item was not mis-represented but Pierlala failed to do her due diligence in her enthusiasm to buy Rapunzel and Tak is unfortunately stuck in the middle.

As others have said, Tak should not have to pick up the pieces for this at all but at this point, it's her choice and if all parties are happy, as Hathorcat has said, this seems to be resolved.

[ashlyne]

FF,
Especially since she is a Rapunzel, I had and still have no idea if her hair is perfect. The woman I originally purchased her from had this in eBay listing:

Hair: All plugs are present. Her tinsel gets a little wild but it is not too crinkly. I do not think she has a hair cut as the ends of her hair have a factory appearance. Her curls are a little tight right now. I included a picture of her all wet when I was shampooing her so you can see the length. She does have some dryness and frizz.

(Original listing from which I PM purchased: http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rare-Vintage-G1-My-Little-Pony-Mail-Order-Offer-Rapunzel-Gorgeous-/322060375525?cp=1&euid=4b0fc9bc178e47eeabafc34e79ded635&nma=true&si=Bni0yjq50JCtqggGiisy5yhZYlc%3D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557)

Just out of personal curiosity...  DrEsmeRose, when you put Rapunzel up for sale,  did you mention anything at all about Rapunzel's mane looking like it may not be right?  Looks like the seller you got her from mentioned it possibly being a factory flaw of some sort, but did you pass along that information to your potential buyers?   Kudos if you did   and even if you didn't, it's still up to the buyer to catch those kinds of things.   At a $800-900 price (basically her value in mint condition), any minor quirks like that should be brought to the buyers attention, especially when they could be overlooked by hair that's curly or flipping in different directions.  I've been a very long time collector, and I have to admit, I don't think I would've caught it without measuring my own Rapunzel's hair :/   

Ultimately it was Tak's responsibility to ask about any flaws, but I can see why she assumed there weren't any at that asking price and the way the hair is flipped.  If you didn't mention there *might* be a flaw, it would be helpful if you did in future sales to help avoid a situation like this If you did mention it, you did all you could.   I think we can all learn some lessons here in selling and buying!

[Nella]

What a mess indeed! The only thing that is bothering me a bit, is that Pierlala is made the 'bad guy' and Tak the 'victim'. If I'm getting it correctly Tak bought Rapunzel even before Pierlala could really think about it.

First of all, I don't know either of them, but I PM'd with Pierlala recently because I saw Rapunzel for sale on Marktplaats (our kind of Ebay in The Netherlands). She asked me to remove my post because she didn't want to upset the Arena member that helped her to get Rapunzel (me not knowing it was Tak). I can't help but feeling that she has been pushed to buy without real consideration, with all consequences that followed. Ok, she has had the pictures up front, but the sale was done before she knew. She didn't want to upset Tak so went through with it. In fact, she was left with no choice?

I do think it was wrong to send her back to the first seller through a Paypal claim. But in fact she should have been able to return it to Tak because she is the real seller for Pierlala? I think that she should have declined the buying of Rapunzel in the first place, but that wouldn't change the situation. Tak would have bought Rapunzel already and would loose money.

[kasin]

I'm really sorry to read this thread, Ill hold my opinions and hope everyone involved is satisfied by whatever the final resolution is.

What I do want to say is that I very much hope everyone knows that middlemen and networks of friends/collectors can work and can still be a wonderful thing. There are safety measurers that should be taken, communication is vital and everyone involved needs to understand their part and take responsibility but honestly some of the most fun and rewarding experiences I've had as a collector has been from collaboration and networking, so it kills me to see a thread like this.

Not trying to hijack this topic, but dident want it to leave the impression that networks or middlemen arrangments have to end badly.

No, this is a very good point. But you've got to know your trading partners. There was a huge communication  breakdown in this particular transaction and usually, sellers are made aware of when they are working with a third party.
Plus, the third party is really only used to receive items and ship them to their final destination. I have never heard of that person making payment for a pony on behalf of another like this before.

For this transaction, as far as the seller was concerned, the sale was completed successfully when she heard that the pony was received and the buyer was satisfied. Not only did Tak message her directly of satisfaction, but Pierlala confirmed satisfaction on here and in her brag thread and buyer's remorse struck once she realized the mane was cut, probably exacerbated by the knowledge that the price was on the high end for Rapunzel to begin with and having had to pay €200 import duties.

The pony should never have been returned in the first place. I requested, but did not see, the original FB sales post to verify whether or not the item was mis-represented. It sounds like the item was not mis-represented but Pierlala failed to do her due diligence in her enthusiasm to buy Rapunzel and Tak is unfortunately stuck in the middle.

As others have said, Tak should not have to pick up the pieces for this at all but at this point, it's her choice and if all parties are happy, as Hathorcat has said, this seems to be resolved.

Oh, make no mistake, I have strong opinions from what I've read about this transaction, but it seems like the damage is done and now there is some sort of closure that my opinions wont change or help at this point.

Networks are just such a valuable resource Id hate for a bad transaction to give the practice as a whole a bad name.

[Tak]

This is why I take responsibility for the mistakes and made it right with both DrEsmeRose and Pierlala financially as soon as possible. As far as the chargeback, I was told "why don't you just do a chargeback?" When I was having trouble getting in contact with the seller. My card company did say it's just fine to do one if the product doesn't match the description.

Okay, see Tak, the problem with this is that the pony DID match her description. You didn't ask for more details or know what to look for. That's on you, not the seller. That does not make their description wrong. You even said the pony was fine and approved her.

Chargebacks are a BIG deal and should not be filed willy-nilly like that.

You do understand that I did not file a chargeback, right? I was just stating what they told me. Someone had said it was fraud. I reiterate. I did not file for a chargeback.

Post Merge: August 03, 2016, 04:54:10 PM

I'm really sorry to read this thread, Ill hold my opinions and hope everyone involved is satisfied by whatever the final resolution is.

What I do want to say is that I very much hope everyone knows that middlemen and networks of friends/collectors can work and can still be a wonderful thing. There are safety measurers that should be taken, communication is vital and everyone involved needs to understand their part and take responsibility but honestly some of the most fun and rewarding experiences I've had as a collector has been from collaboration and networking, so it kills me to see a thread like this.

Not trying to hijack this topic, but dident want it to leave the impression that networks or middlemen arrangments have to end badly.

I've had it work before as well and it was such a rewarding experience. They can work. I just messed this one up royally.

Post Merge: August 03, 2016, 05:07:44 PM

What a mess indeed! The only thing that is bothering me a bit, is that Pierlala is made the 'bad guy' and Tak the 'victim'. If I'm getting it correctly Tak bought Rapunzel even before Pierlala could really think about it.

First of all, I don't know either of them, but I PM'd with Pierlala recently because I saw Rapunzel for sale on Marktplaats (our kind of Ebay in The Netherlands). She asked me to remove my post because she didn't want to upset the Arena member that helped her to get Rapunzel (me not knowing it was Tak). I can't help but feeling that she has been pushed to buy without real consideration, with all consequences that followed. Ok, she has had the pictures up front, but the sale was done before she knew. She didn't want to upset Tak so went through with it. In fact, she was left with no choice?

I do think it was wrong to send her back to the first seller through a Paypal claim. But in fact she should have been able to return it to Tak because she is the real seller for Pierlala? I think that she should have declined the buying of Rapunzel in the first place, but that wouldn't change the situation. Tak would have bought Rapunzel already and would loose money.

Nella, I haven't had much interaction with you... I believe it was just that you didn't take PayPal? :/ my memory is not perfect. I didn't intentionally push pierlala to buy. She had asked if there was any way the seller could hold the pony because she wanted it, but wouldn't get paid for roughly ten days. I hope she didn't feel pressured and did ask if she was sure before I made the payment. I'm not feeling like a victim of anything other than my own choices. I tried to encourage pierlala to tell her side honestly and to stay. Take a break if she needed to, but that she certainly didn't need to leave.

I take responsibility for the whole mess. My fault. At least I learned some things that I have to do differently if I ever try to be a go between in the future.