Hydrogen Peroxide Soaks versus Sun Fading

[Artemesia's Garden]

I imagine a sun faded pony would be okay for a child to play with- would an oxy boil pony or peroxide-soaked pony be okay as well? I have a few ponies with unacceptable stains and I would like to try to get them out but I need them to be child-safe afterward.

Some of the pen stains, I have tried the method of heating the pony in hot water, applying antibacterial soap, and scraping. I have had little success in drastically lightening the pen stains but this takes a very long time and I am not sure if it is worth it for the purpose. Any thoughts?

Ok, personally I have stopped giving children vintage toys period I keep my stuff out of reach of both children and pets.(even those in seemingly good repair). I posted something a while back about a lab taking 80's stuff and finding lead and cadmium in the vinyl (yes, even in 80's MLP). it can be absorbed through skin.  So now I hoard extra pretty g3's and g4's for my kids that get to "see the collection and get a free pony from the pony lady" box.

 I would never give a child any vintage toy which was once, or becomes slimy to the touch or heavily weathered. (and sunfading, heat UV this all starts damage/breakdown) Sadly since lead and cadmuim ended up in our playthings anyway and the concern is as they break down they can be adsorbed through skin. you also don't want them getting old plasticizers all over their hands either. If you have concerns though the person to ask is your pediatrician, or a musuem conservator with knowledge of 80's plastic's.

Exceptions of course are older kids who want them as a collectible and not for play. They can't hurt you in a curio.

I just wanted to second this. Lead and pthalates I heard.

[Radha]

  I wonder if coating the hair in petroleum jelly would protect it during peroxide soaking?  Or some other substance?

  Of course then the question is would the petroleum react in any way with the peroxide? 

  I really appreciate this thread, as I love to clean items but have often pondered the implications of "restoration" and long term changes they might cause.  I don't have any clear answers, of course, but I do worry we might look back one day with regret on various fixes that seemed harmless at the time.  I think these discussions are great and I use them to help guide my cleaning practices. 

[lostpony]

Artemesia Floc, First I want to say that your input is extremely valuable to those of us who rush in without sufficient knowledge to attack a problem, and destroy damaged ponies.  I believe no one should dislike you for being a voice of cost and caution.  Whether we respond to you or not, we are given valuable food for thought and may question our methods, for example my cavalier use of ridiculously strong bleach soaks because I was leery of products with names, like Oxi Clean.  Next time I am tempted to use dangerously strong bleach, I will instead get some Oxi Clean because you, a proponent of conservative methods, consider it safe.

I am also glad to see you re-insert tails without any anchor at all because that is what I have been starting to do.  I don't think putting a dangerous hunk of degradable iron back in the pony to preserve its originality is a good thing at all...I've been keeping the tail washers, but not together with the ponies.  There is a valid conservation argument with keeping the washer with the pony....but, I don't think anyone wants the original old battery corroding away their classic car.  Some things just have to go, for the good of the rest of an item.  As to the crimp, yes most of them are safely non-ferrous and they can easily be tested for iron by seeing if they stick to a magnet.

I'd like to address the issue of Bromine and other additives.  Obviously PVC ponies are not like hard PVC water pipes so there is a serious cocktail of things blended together to make pony plastic and it is something I am personally ignorant of and value any knowledge to increase my understanding of the mysterious recipe I am toying with.  However, I have collected some very specific data from my Fire Chief "case study" on pony cancer, following a Moonstone dissection and based on observations from a Bright Eyes "stabilization" boil.  While I have not completed my case study (due to things not quite wrapping up without need of further steps I am hoping to complete soon), I have taken a lot of pictures along the way and the jumbled up, unindexed archive is here: https://drive.google.com/open?id=0BzP8lAXs8KOWV2gtM3paWnZBekE  Buried in there, and findable by the dates pics are taken, are my before pics showing the brown spots I believe we can all agree are "centerpoint cancer".  I then applied boiling, a seriously excessive amount of boiling time in fact, though I got little change in the spots after the first few hours.  What happens in the boil is that the light brown color fades to white, and the material is raised, and the darker part in the center becomes smaller, and sometimes darker, and the material is raised even more than the areas of the lighter color.  Of course the entire white pony yellowed.  I applied the peroxide-bath sunfade to correct that yellowing, and found that the darker spot left in the raised area in the center also becomes white.  If I had stopped there, as pictures show, the pony color is nice and white with no brown left at all, but the original cancer spots are raised, or as I call them, "scars".  I used 400 grit wet-sanding paper to remove those scars, and found that underneath there are still some very light brown spots left.  The most recent pics in the archive show these.  My next step is to see if further boiling affects those leftover spots or not.

My Moonstone dissection shows that the cancer spots are deep in the material...basically centered in the material in most examples.  Also most examples have spots perfectly round.  Exceptions to both of these seem to be where a contaminant exists...for example, in my Bright Eyes, there was a cancer spot on each side of a trapped fiber of some sort in the neck seam.  Another example was in the dissection Moonstone, where in one spot, the center dark spot was like a "rod" that was closer to one surface at one end and the other surface at the other end.  Each of the other cancer spots I have examined are all perfectly round, and have a clear change from the darker part in the center to the lighter part that surrounds the center...not a gentle fade but a clear contrast line.

What I want to address is, how does my observation fit the theory of Bromine or other leaking materials?  Would those leaking materials really be consistent with the shape of the spots we are all observing?  Would boiling re-combine those leaking materials into the PVC, or remove them to explain the loss of the brown color I am observing by boiling?  In either case, does that explain the change in shape of the material as I am observing?  I took a lot of pictures with different angles of lighting to show the raised material areas, and to show the loss of brown color, and they are all unedited and in the archive above. 

To me, the shape of the spots (and what happens to them when boiled) is consistent with life.  Bacteria particularly, and the sharp contrast in color suggests possible dual organisms like in lichens.  Further, cancer spots appear on ponies that are stored in poor conditions, and particularly on certain ponies that develop it commonly like Fire Chief.  To me this suggests that certain formulations probably contain or leak a particular additive or contaminant, and if the spots are biological, then they must feed on that leaked substance.  Also moisture or other conditions must either advantage the organism or further the leaking of the substance.

Finally, is there any information available as to exactly what formulations of materials were actually used on particular ponies?  At one point such information must have existed.  Where was it kept?  Communications between Hasbro and their manufacturing would have references.  Manufacturing recipes absolutely must have existed.  Where are they?  I have no idea how to investigate to find any records that might still exist, only certainty that they once did and suspicion that comparing that information to what we know as collectors different pony materials have tended to do could help us close the gap between theory and factual certain conclusions.

Thanks everypony for participating in this fascinating thread! 

Afterthoughts: 

Roogna:  painting peroxide-soaked ponies.  I found that Fire Chief after being boiled (including a different head that was only boiled 2 hours then faded for a week) and peroxide sunfaded for a week has a clean dry surface that is super-vulnerable to smudges.  I had dirty hands that I washed thoroughly and still left smudges.  So I suspect the surface has been depleted of contaminants like the plasticizer etc that would normally protect the surface from smudging and reduce the bond with the paint so....paint will probably stick even better than ponies you are used to.  If those baits are cancered, please boil them at least an hour because regardless of theory it is not known whether it is alive so kill, kill kill.

fizzingmagic:  I didn't observe any reduction in cancer from the sunfade alone and worry that adhesives will contaminate the peroxide bath...I have heard about using tissue paper to cover up, and I used foil which worked well enough where I could make it stay put.  Bowtie's color might be seriously damaged by peroxide sunfading or boiling!  Make sure you have your friend's permission to destroy their Bowtie before trying it or you may damage your friendship.  The Bright Eyes that is currently my avatar was boiled for two hours and her color is OK so Bowtie might be OK boiled.  Make sure to publish your results so we can learn!

Restoration:  I reiterate everything said by everypony as to the risk and destructive nature of the methods I am discussing here, in particular boiling and peroxide sunfading.  These are RISKY.  No matter how successful they may seem, they are for use on ponies that are otherwise LOST.  Please do not use such methods on your otherwise perfectly OK ponies!  You may regret it later (or right away).  There are so many ponies that are ruined by centerpoint cancer so they are what I choose to play mad scientist on.  Please don't ruin your good ponies that less destructive methods will help.


Thanks FarDreamer for this thread!

[FarDreamer]

For the folks asking about covering the symbols, I've never needed to for a peroxide soak, but I do cover them for sun fading.  I don't know if it's that I don't leave mine outside for that long, but I've never had issues with the symbols fading during a soak.  I have had pink and red hair fade, but not other colors.

Also, I won't bore everyone with a bunch more links to articles, but nearly everything I've read about PVC makes some sort of statement about how pvc is used for all sorts of stuff "pipes, industrial use, medical equipment, toys" and they often discuss the use of plasticiser.  However, they've never said that the addition of plasticiser changes the way it interacts with other compounds, and I'm sure they would know about this, so I'm thinking the effect is has must be minimal.

About the bromine thing, this guy has a lot to say:  https://www.quora.com/What-is-happening-in-terms-of-a-chemical-process-when-hydrogen-peroxide-is-used-to-restore-discoloured-Lego

And yes, I am aware that ABS and PVC aren't the same thing, but I've just started reading on how that affects toys and don't have a lot of info to pass on yet.

http://radiantdreamer.net/differences-in-plastics-abs-pvc-vinyl-resin-polystone-oh-my/

[FantasticFirefly]

Also, I won't bore everyone with a bunch more links to articles, but nearly everything I've read about PVC makes some sort of statement about how pvc is used for all sorts of stuff "pipes, industrial use, medical equipment, toys" and they often discuss the use of plasticiser.  However, they've never said that the addition of plasticiser changes the way it interacts with other compounds, and I'm sure they would know about this, so I'm thinking the effect is has must be minimal.

Articles are interesting. those who are bored can choose not to click. Share away.

I may harp on using caution with restorations that involve soaking, bleaching, UV and various cleaning agents beyond a mild soap that is washed off (as well as record keeping and identifiers on restored ponies).

But, more important is how we display and store our collections which has a lot of influence on what will happen to our collectible toys. It's not new information that heat is VERY, VERY damaging. (Thank you for sharing that- heat absolutely is enemy #1) Hot storage unit will absolutely destroy a collection in short order, as well storage in attics (just try and go up there in the summer. You'll swelter) and sheds, garages. Even inside a home without AC to cool the room toys are kept. If you had a worthless pony (not treated prior with anything), cut her up and preform an accelerated aging experiment. a piece in the attic (or anywhere as HOT as you can find with high heat like your car in the summer) piece on your display shelf, peroxide a couple pieces and keep one in your collection too, and another in the high heat area. Reminding me to find my bait bait bait box. It would be interesting to see how the two different pieces react to high heat. will one turn brown first? ooze more? etc.

"Degradation of Plasticizers" starts on page two. http://cool.conservation-us.org/waac/wn/wn32/wn32-2/wn32-204.pdf
Our MLP by weight is likely over 40%. Most MLP is quite soft and malleable. so triggering the aging process, leeching them out is something we do most definitely want to avoid. (sticky droplets on surfaces attracting stains, off gassing VOC's, deforming the figure as it shrinks etc)

*edit*
From the Smithsonian. (bolding by me) https://www.si.edu/mci/downloads/articles/ecoEXCHANGE-Winter2009.pdf
"Migration of plasticizers via evaporation is the major cause
of plastics’ instability. Plasticizers are low-molecular-weight
resins or liquids that form a noncovalent (weaker bond) to
plastics. Plasticizers are added to reduce a plastic’s tensile
strength, hardness, and density. For example, PVC pipes
have no plasticizers (phthalate); PVC-based toys have
30-50% phthalate. Migration refers to a component that
leaves a material as a gas, liquid, or solid. Plasticizers can
evaporate into the environment as a gas and deposit as a
liquid or solid onto the surface of the plastics. Plasticizers
such as phthalate and bisphenol-A (BPA) are recognized as
endocrine disruptors by the medical community and are
classified as priority pollutants by most regulatory bodies.
The sticky films on the surface of plastics are often associ-
ated with the liquid plasticizers. These sticky films trap
dust. Never use a bare hand to touch this dusty sticky
surface; instead wipe the sticky films with a non-abrasive
cloth or microfiber, and dispose of the waste properly."

Medical bags and lines that are PVC (also soft and malleable) are also different from toys. Toys are kept, and in our case for decades past it's intended "life". The medical equipment is used while intact and new before aging, and disposed of after. It doesn't get a chance to degrade first.

[ponyqueen]

My quick bits:

#1 Baby Glory's blue mane stripe fades in a peroxide sunbath. ~2-3 days.

#2 If pony accessories revert to yellowed state after peroxide treatment, am I better off restoring my personal PE's roof to the proper pink with spray paint? (found a good color at Michael's)

#3 Sticky plastic: G2 Hip Holly is very sticky. How should I clean her? With non-abrasive cloth and water? Soap? Rubbing alcohol?

[lostpony]

Fire Chief's symbol faded dramatically when I used peroxide and direct sunlight.  Masking is very important and while I had trouble getting foil to stay in place, it was effective where it covered.  I have heard of using tissue paper.  I hesitate to use tape or anything like that and since nopony is jumping in with clear knowledge as to masks for peroxide sunfades, I might experiment by palcing tape in smaller volumes of peroxide in the sun just to test whether it is stable.  However, not all adhesive is the same so, that test would have to be repeated for each roll, or at least brand, of tape each time before using which would be OK, just test it and label it for htat purpose alone and it will last a long time.  Assuming it test-drives OK and I will be checking that out pretty soon.

I have in the short time I've observed 2 specimens of Fire Chief (month or two) the yellowing has stayed away with no hints that it is coming back (so far).

Fire Chief's blue hair definitely turned purple in a couple days where the foil didn't cover it.  Mask that hair!

I have a Gingerbread on the way and when she arrives I will continue my experiments, and try out better masks as well so will have more on these things in a week or two I hope.

[FarDreamer]

#2 If pony accessories revert to yellowed state after peroxide treatment, am I better off restoring my personal PE's roof to the proper pink with spray paint? (found a good color at Michael's)

I decided I don't like using the hair bleaching stuff:  http://www.mlppreservationproject.com/accessories.html#Playsets  I'm pretty willing to try different restoration techniques, but this stuff was way too messy and I kept burning myself with it.  So I painted my Lullabye Nursery and my Show Stable and they turned out great.  I didn't use spray paint, just regular brush on craft acrylic, but I don't know why spray paint wouldn't work.  I sealed them with a brush on glaze before I found out that some customizers have had issues with glazes getting sticky with time, so I've been watching out for sticky-ness with mine.  I recently discovered spray on mod podge, which is wonderful stuff!

[FantasticFirefly]

#2 If pony accessories revert to yellowed state after peroxide treatment, am I better off restoring my personal PE's roof to the proper pink with spray paint? (found a good color at Michael's)

#3 Sticky plastic: G2 Hip Holly is very sticky. How should I clean her? With non-abrasive cloth and water? Soap? Rubbing alcohol?

#2. I got a broken heat damaged nursery many years ago. Cut the bottle front door off to use as a display. it was pretty brown. Krylon for plastic held up really well. It comes in a spray can. Not tacky, smooth, nice and white still. I painted it well before 05' I think 03'? (I know it was at least a year before visiting BC and moving... guessing 03'-04' ish. I didn't seal it after with anything beyond the paint.

I am wondering if heat damage is the thing that reverts with H202 when I did tests of peices, all the ones which appeared heat damaged re yellowed. some stayed nice, but the surface finish on those was noticably different, and the yellowing was far less intense only in spots the sun would have hit. They also didn't feel "brittle" like storage unit in the sun, garage, shed or attic rescues. (the surface finish on the heat damaged stuff wasn't smooth. it was very slightly rough)

#3 Microfiber. Dampen it, wring it out and wipe. Wear gloves. and don't use the gloves or the cloth for other things. (So as to not transfer plasticizers.). From the quote I had above. It does work.
"The sticky films on the surface of plastics are often associ-
ated with the liquid plasticizers. These sticky films trap
dust. Never use a bare hand to touch this dusty sticky
surface; instead wipe the sticky films with a non-abrasive
cloth or microfiber, and dispose of the waste properly."

[Shabi]

I know this theme is really old, but I would like to ask a question. Do we need to use the sun? It's the UV we need to sunfade and I figured an UV lamp would work much better. We don't have a lot of sunny days in Russia so sunfading is almost impossible. Are UV lamps dangerous? Have anyone used an UV lamp instead of the sun?

[Epona]

I`m so confused  .
Are nasty microbes eating my ponies? Or is the plastic/vinyl breaking down?
Do I boil them for 10 min like baby bottles to kill the microbes?
Soak them in H2O2 to kill the microbes?
Or are those treatments going to speed up the break down process?
"Oh the horror, the horror..."

[FarDreamer]

I know this theme is really old, but I would like to ask a question. Do we need to use the sun? It's the UV we need to sunfade and I figured an UV lamp would work much better. We don't have a lot of sunny days in Russia so sunfading is almost impossible. Are UV lamps dangerous? Have anyone used an UV lamp instead of the sun?

It doesn't seem to work without the sun, which sucks since it's most likely the sun that causes the fading.  I'd be curious to know if a UV lamp works.  I assume it would have to be full spectrum.  They do get hot, but otherwise, I don't know why they'd be dangerous.  I guess if they are more intense than the sun then they might cause worse fading?  I'm going to have to steal my turtle's lamp and try this out . . .

Post Merge: January 05, 2017, 08:01:21 PM

I`m so confused  .
Are nasty microbes eating my ponies? Or is the plastic/vinyl breaking down?
Do I boil them for 10 min like baby bottles to kill the microbes?
Soak them in H2O2 to kill the microbes?
Or are those treatments going to speed up the break down process?
"Oh the horror, the horror..."

So I understand where this can get confusing.  Collectors used to believe that the cancer/age spots were caused by fungus, then they decided for various reasons that they are caused by a breakdown of the vinyl.  I recently bought a book on caring for vinyl dolls that was written by a chemist, and he says that it is actually most likely a fungus.  The brown spot is a stain left by the fungus.  There is a type of breakdown caused by exposure to chlorine, which can also be triggered by some other things, but according to him this leave brown streaks, not round spots.  Here's what the book says about the rest of your questions:

Are nasty microbes eating my ponies? Or is the plastic/vinyl breaking down? - according to him it's probably fungus
Do I boil them for 10 min like baby bottles to kill the microbes? - He didn't mention this being necessary, keeping them stored in an  area with less than 70 percent humidity keeps the fungus from growing.  Fungi are everywhere, if the humidity gets to high it will grow on the vinyl.
Soak them in H2O2 to kill the microbes? - I don't know if it kills it or not, but the peroxide cleans out the stain and aids in bleaching it.  Why sometimes it works and sometimes it doesn't I haven't figured out yet.
Or are those treatments going to speed up the break down process? - he recommends some products with much higher concentrations of H2O2 than the stuff you can get at a pharmacy, so I'm assuming the lower concentrations are also safe. (I don't know yet if these products are safe for dyed vinyl or would cause similar problems as remove-zit)  Just keep in mind, while the peroxide doesn't react badly with vinyl, it is bad for nylon, the ponies hair.

I hope that helps!

[Foxtale]

Can never have enough of these threads! I love science applied to collecting.

[WaterRaven]

This thread was a great read. Though I'm a little worried about handling my G1's now

I have a G1 Lofty with quite a bit of cancer on her face. I'm going to try the peroxide soak and will post before and afterward photos. She needs to be re-haired as well. But now that I've read that the brown spots are most likely caused by a fungus, should I have her around my other ponies? Will the fungus spread?

[FarDreamer]

But now that I've read that the brown spots are most likely caused by a fungus, should I halve her around my other ponies? Will the fungus spread?

He says that fungal spores are everywhere, and if the humidity goes above 70%, it will attack the vinyl.  It doesn't really matter if there are already stained ponies around or not.  The vinyl provides a substrate for the fungus and it feeds of off the plasticizer.  What we call smooze can also be caused by fungus, and another type can cause the pink stains that are common on vinyl.