Hydrogen Peroxide Soaks versus Sun Fading

[shadowlark]

Hydrogen peroxide and sunlight doesn't seem to be helping fade the glue stains on my deflocked SS Paradise   Been out for 2 weeks and no difference. How long does it usually take to fade say pen/marker marks in hydrogen peroxide in the sun?

I don't know about glue stains, but I think regular sun fading works better for pen and marker stains.  The less direct the sun is in your location, the longer it takes.  Some people report it taking months in cloudy areas.  The sun is very intense where I'm at and I can do it in a day or two, but many places are not that lucky.  Hydrogen peroxide breaks down into water and oxygen quickly when exposed to light, so if you're in a cloudy area and need to use it for an extended time, you may need to dump it out and replace it periodically.  I don't think we know enough about this method yet to know if prolonged exposure puts the pony at a higher risk for bad side effects.  If everyone keeps posting your results, I really want to learn more about what other folks are observing.

Yeah, I actually tried getting the glue stains out by just sunfading her all last summer and no difference so thought I'd try the peroxide soak. Might end up baiting her if I can't get the stains out

What about painting over the glue stains?

Yeah, I think if I can't get the stains out I'll just customize her and giver her a full body repaint. Just a bit disappointed cause I'd read about so many awesome results from peroxide + sunfading and was sure it would work, but nothing so far

[Artemesia's Garden]

My only concern about stuff being so promoted is the people who now view it as basic cleaning, thus nothing to keep track of or disclose during sale. This is a RESTORATION so a pony is no longer original, and will never be mint even if it looks that way. the pony should somehow have an identifier as a reminder for what was done to it- to preserve the value of ones collection. (I use some white thread at the base of the tail to mark it as treated by H202). I mostly stopped buying ponies from collectors/pony resellers years ago due to getting bit with undisclosed restores sold as Mint or NM.

This is a huge concern for me.  I would never wish to buy a pony that has been boiled, treated with HPO, bleached or sunfaded for long periods but I think that with more people trying out restoration techniques these things will become increasingly common.  I have most of my collection now but there is still a risk that I will buy those remaining expensive ponies only to haver their hair disintegrate or the brown spots come up after a few months or they will go hard.  There is no accountability because these interventions just speed up decay that would have happened anyway, the question is how fast and how long do you have left to enjoy your object?  I feel bad for new G1 collectors because it is getting rarer to find ponies that have not been damaged by collectors. 

I have a background in scientific research and have experience of collections work in museums so I feel as though I am a relatively safe pair of hands, but when I see the damage some people do to ponies it's difficult not to begrudge people just 'having a go' with household chemicals and no understanding of how they interact with plastics.  Generally I've tried to avoid threads where I think people are getting things wrong especially if the correct information is out there and has been repeated time and time again. I think that people ignore my posts (because why should I be any authority) and it makes me unpopular, but sometimes I do pop something in because I think it's a shame that ponies are being damaged.  In general, harsh chemicals and treatments are not a valid 'quick fix', they only speed up the decay of the objects in the long term.  Patience and elbow grease can do a lot without damaging the pony.  I did post a load of repeated info but I really need to stop myself.

[FarDreamer]

My only concern about stuff being so promoted is the people who now view it as basic cleaning, thus nothing to keep track of or disclose during sale. This is a RESTORATION so a pony is no longer original, and will never be mint even if it looks that way. the pony should somehow have an identifier as a reminder for what was done to it- to preserve the value of ones collection. (I use some white thread at the base of the tail to mark it as treated by H202). I mostly stopped buying ponies from collectors/pony resellers years ago due to getting bit with undisclosed restores sold as Mint or NM.

This is a huge concern for me.  I would never wish to buy a pony that has been boiled, treated with HPO, bleached or sunfaded for long periods but I think that with more people trying out restoration techniques these things will become increasingly common.  I have most of my collection now but there is still a risk that I will buy those remaining expensive ponies only to haver their hair disintegrate or the brown spots come up after a few months or they will go hard.  There is no accountability because these interventions just speed up decay that would have happened anyway, the question is how fast and how long do you have left to enjoy your object?  I feel bad for new G1 collectors because it is getting rarer to find ponies that have not been damaged by collectors. 

I have a background in scientific research and have experience of collections work in museums so I feel as though I am a relatively safe pair of hands, but when I see the damage some people do to ponies it's difficult not to begrudge people just 'having a go' with household chemicals and no understanding of how they interact with plastics.  Generally I've tried to avoid threads where I think people are getting things wrong especially if the correct information is out there and has been repeated time and time again. I think that people ignore my posts (because why should I be any authority) and it makes me unpopular, but sometimes I do pop something in because I think it's a shame that ponies are being damaged.  In general, harsh chemicals and treatments are not a valid 'quick fix', they only speed up the decay of the objects in the long term.  Patience and elbow grease can do a lot without damaging the pony.  I did post a load of repeated info but I really need to stop myself.

I think everyone here agrees that you should disclose any work you did on a pony when selling it.  That's not really what we're discussing.  If you have specific information that would be beneficial, please do share it.  If you've worked in museums, then you should have lots of good input.  I wouldn't assume that you're being ignored if someone hasn't seen your posts.  I scan for restoration posts periodically, but personally don't have time to be on the boards that much.  For years now all I've ever seen is speculation about side effects hydrogen peroxide may have down the line.  All I've ever seen anyone confirm for sure is that sometimes brown spots re-appear after a time, and fading can happen (which obviously, anything exposed to the sun can fade), along with what I included in my first post.  I tried this years ago on some really awful condition ponies, and they're still just fine.  Other toy communities use this all the time.  We have undeniable evidence of damage remove-zit and benzoyl peroxide can do, but I have yet to see anyone show for sure evidence where sun fading or hydrogen peroxide cause harm beyond what's already been listed.

Post Merge: July 06, 2016, 06:56:43 PM

I began with dissection and found that the spots (which I am starting to call colonies because I am increasingly convinced they are bacterial colonies from their growth patterns and what happens to them when they are boiled)

Lostpony, have you seen this?  I thought you might find it useful if you haven't:  http://www.mylittleponynews.com/2010/10/pony-science-pony-cancer-under.html

[lostpony]

I have not seen that, and the video does not play for me.  Does it still work for you?

I've been hounding my friend for months to return my microscope so I could examine a few specimens.

A bacteria that specializes in deteriorating and / or particular types of plastics is a kinda scary sort of thing...like the Andromeda Strain, no?  I have a number of questions that my microscope could help me answer:  why the sharp contrast between two specific shades of brown?  A fading scale would be more indicated in a deterioration or a single organism.  To me, two colors says 1) biological and 2) 2 symbiotic organisms.  Circular colonies is more consistent with bacteria than mold or deterioration.

Boiling them for an hour causing the entire colony to raise and the darker part to raise more is consistent with destroying biological tissue.  I can think of no other explanation.  My evidence so far is observational, with only naked eye but I believe consistent with bacteria.  Also the conditions of every pony I have had with this except for those particularly vulnerable to it like Fire Chief have been very poor like an ebay lot that had very much been in rat nesting area for a significant length of time, others experience that trapped moisture is a factor, the way cancer is spread all across the same pony but not necessarily on a pony next to it, that sort of thing.  That it happens to older ponies and to specific ponies lke fire chief suggests there is a component of the materials that is food for the bacteria that is present in some ponies but has to develop in others through some sort of decay...or possibly that the bacteria comes from a source that is present in manufacture of some ponies, but bacteria that lasts so long as to wait around decades before occurring is less probable than is a commonly available bacteria that can infect ponies with certain specific materials present.

Lots of good questions, few answers. 

So I just called my friend and hounded him some more.  It's in a box somewhere in his stuff and I emphasized how it is the last thing my mom owned that I still have plus that I need it. 

I edited some of my posts around emphasizing that the methods I describe are for LOST ponies only.  Wait a minute...lost ponies....oh no, get that boiling water away from me I didn't mean it's for lostponies....

[Artemesia's Garden]

OK then.

Hydrogen peroxide is reported to have little negative effects on soft plastics at low concentrations.  However, it may damage nylon more easily and therefore affect hair.

Try this table of interactions and note the concentrations.  The information on compatibility ratings is limited (see the bottom section of the page) but they do tell you that the exposure was 48 hours only.

http://www.ozoneservices.com/articles/004.htm

However, we are talking here about HPO being used in combination with UV light to perform essentially this process: http://www.calpoly.edu/~ceenve/enve/jsczechowski/enve436/projects/UV/UV-Ozone-Peroxide.html

And there are many implications.  I thought it was interesting is the effect of an iron catalyst... so whether or not you leave the tail washer in could have an effect.

You might also like...

http://www.fibrenew.com/blog/how-to-clean-vinyl-boat-seats-cleaner-water-bleach-distilled-water/

[lostpony]

All RIGHT!  Now we're talking, thanks for the hard data!

Some questions: 
1.  On the material compatibility chart:  which material on the left is a pony anyway?  All those material types are way over my head...also the consumer HPO we have available is 3% which is 1/3 the lowest concentration, so do we scan across the concentrations columns to extrapolate where 3% is?  It's probably not linear right?

2.  The UV and HPO writeup:  That is discussing in situations adding ozone (O3) and you are referring to the section on oxidation mostly right?  We aren't adding O3 but, H2O2 decays to H2O leaving a free radical single O is that a similar effect and oxidizes similarly to the extra O in the O3->O + O2 they are talking about?  I theorized this already as maybe why it works so I hope that is what you mean cuz I would have been right about something today! if that's what you mean.

3.  Vinyl boat cleaner article:  so we are supposed to be using vinyl specific cleaner then?  I notice it talks about a standard mold killer available at a garden store safe enough for boat seats...both products that could be handy for treating / studying pony afflictions....

4.  Bonus question:  A lot of the abuse I've done so far, in particular boiling, has left pony surface dry without its surface plasticizer (or whatever the actual dry effect is that I think might be lack of plasticizer) that makes pony especially vulnerable to getting grubby, is there a safe vinyl protectant that could be applied to the surface and keep it nice and clean and less vulnerable?

*iron tail washer:  No, I get rid of that thing right away, iron=bad, bad, I like nylon, nylon goood plus don't put tail in the peroxide cuz I did notice it hurts the hair color at least for sure.  I got some stainless washers for tail but they aren't stainless, are plated over iron so if desperate was thinking of maybe drilling holes in dimes for new washer when nylon not available or good nickel-based real stainless not available

Thanks so much for the great info!

[Artemesia's Garden]

All RIGHT!  Now we're talking, thanks for the hard data!

Some questions: 
1.  On the material compatibility chart:  which material on the left is a pony anyway?  All those material types are way over my head...also the consumer HPO we have available is 3% which is 1/3 the lowest concentration, so do we scan across the concentrations columns to extrapolate where 3% is?  It's probably not linear right?

It's PVC, polyvinyl chloride

The lowest concentration on the chart is 10% with exposure for 48 hours.  My understanding is that collectors are using lower concentrations but with longer exposure times.

[Em_L._Pea_Customs]

...*iron tail washer:  No, I get rid of that thing right away, iron=bad, bad, I like nylon, nylon goood plus don't put tail in the peroxide cuz I did notice it hurts the hair color at least for sure.  I got some stainless washers for tail but they aren't stainless, are plated over iron so if desperate was thinking of maybe drilling holes in dimes for new washer when nylon not available or good nickel-based real stainless not available...

FYI-  Most customizers/restorers use zip ties as replacements for both the tail washer, as well as the crimped metal piece (if applicable).  I have customs that I re-haired nearly 10 years ago and they have held up perfectly. 

[FarDreamer]

It's PVC, polyvinyl chloride

The lowest concentration on the chart is 10% with exposure for 48 hours.  My understanding is that collectors are using lower concentrations but with longer exposure times.

I think 6% is the highest concentration you can buy in a store?  I've never left my ponies in the sun for more than 2 days, probably about 12 hours total, but people in areas with less direct sunlight have to leave theirs for longer.

You might find this interesting too:  http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1658365514000880

Anyone know much about any of these things?  "In order to protect against the damaging effects of UVR on polymers, addition of UV light absorbers, excited state quenchers, hindered amine light stabilizers (HALS), hydroperoxide decomposers, radical scavengers, pigments, fillers and antioxidants are an effective and convenient solution in practice."

It seems to me that it's not hydrogen peroxide we need to be worried about, it's the sun and heat.  Especially since a lot of the collectors who worry about peroxide are happy to sunfade.  If we can figure out how to use the peroxide to fade stains, without the need for the sun, then that sounds like a safer option.  Except that I haven't had much luck using peroxide without the sun, and several other collectors have told me the same thing.

As far as the hair goes, people will just need to decide what they think is more important, getting rid of the spots, or preserving the hair.  In five years of testing this out, I haven't had any ponies' hair break off or start to fall out after doing it.  In 17 years of collecting I haven't seen issues caused by sunfading besides what is already known (fading, etc.)  If someone starts seeing issues, like what happened after removezit got popular, then I'd certainly like to hear about it and see photos. 

I think this is pretty safe.  It looks like PVC takes years of sun exposure to really start showing the effects (not that ponies are pipes, but it's the closest thing I could find):  http://www.uni-bell.org/resources.php?c=41

And apparently PVC takes decades to degrade.  Yeah, your ponies can kill you:  http://www.greenlivingtips.com/articles/pvc-and-the-environment.html

[Artemesia's Garden]

Hi there, thanks for the extra links. Will have a read.

Tail washers I just remove if rusty and replace tail with no anchor -  or if only slightly rusty I sand off the rust and coat with a varnish before replacing in a bone dry pony. This conserves the original washer as part of the pony. I don't use cable ties because different plastics can interact badly. At the V&A museum of childhood they are aware of this and separate Barbie and store their parts seperately according to the type of plastic. I have no evidence for cable ties being bad for ponies in this way but as always err on the side of caution. However cable ties can be a pain to remove if deep cleansing is needed again in the future.

One more note - i have only once found a tail where the crimp was so corroded i had to remove it so i think that might have been a replacement. Even if they look rusty do not remove because its just surface corrosion. I think the crimps are usually made of aluminum. Just de 'rust' with toothpaste and you can try vinegar as well. This is good because once that crimp is gone you lose the character of the tail imo.

Re: PVC pipes I've read this before and concluded interesting but seems to be talking about hard PVC? Soft pony PVC is probably less stable due to the jncorporation of plasticisers to soften and bromine as a fire retardant so interesting but I would treat with caution.


Post Merge: July 08, 2016, 02:08:46 AM

You might find this interesting too:  http://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1658365514000880

Anyone know much about any of these things?  "In order to protect against the damaging effects of UVR on polymers, addition of UV light absorbers, excited state quenchers, hindered amine light stabilizers (HALS), hydroperoxide decomposers, radical scavengers, pigments, fillers and antioxidants are an effective and convenient solution in practice."

Thanks that's a great article.  I think all of those things listed in the abstract as protective just work against the activity of the UV which is what fades off the stain.  Basically by sunfading you are damaging both the stain and the plastic but the stain is (hopefully) defeated well before the plastic shows immediate signs of damage. But that doesn't mean the damage isn't there.

The notes about high temperatures seem to support my views about avoiding extremes of heat as well. 

Also interesting is the need to stabilise aromatic bromine (used as a fire retardant) against UV light (fig 32). The theory I am sticking to about pony cancer (and as others have stated as well) is that pony cancer or brown spotting is caused by the release of molecules of bromine as the plastic breaks down.  Bromine was added as a fire retardant. When bonded to the plastic bromine is colourless, but when it is no longer bonded to the plastic is changes to a brown colour.  This colour change is a common high school experiment 'decolourisation of bromine' and you can look it up easily.

[margotfranklin]

I imagine a sun faded pony would be okay for a child to play with- would an oxy boil pony or peroxide-soaked pony be okay as well? I have a few ponies with unacceptable stains and I would like to try to get them out but I need them to be child-safe afterward.

Some of the pen stains, I have tried the method of heating the pony in hot water, applying antibacterial soap, and scraping. I have had little success in drastically lightening the pen stains but this takes a very long time and I am not sure if it is worth it for the purpose. Any thoughts?

[Roogna]

this is a wonderful thread! I look forward to seeing how these peroxide soaked ponies hold up over time

I haven't tried one yet, but I have a few bait big brothers (true bait that *will* be customized and are not even salvageable for an alt rehair) that I may test it on. but then I wonder...how will painting (Especially a FBR) work over the peroxide-soaked body?

[FantasticFirefly]

I imagine a sun faded pony would be okay for a child to play with- would an oxy boil pony or peroxide-soaked pony be okay as well? I have a few ponies with unacceptable stains and I would like to try to get them out but I need them to be child-safe afterward.

Some of the pen stains, I have tried the method of heating the pony in hot water, applying antibacterial soap, and scraping. I have had little success in drastically lightening the pen stains but this takes a very long time and I am not sure if it is worth it for the purpose. Any thoughts?

Ok, personally I have stopped giving children vintage toys period I keep my stuff out of reach of both children and pets.(even those in seemingly good repair). I posted something a while back about a lab taking 80's stuff and finding lead and cadmium in the vinyl (yes, even in 80's MLP). it can be absorbed through skin.  So now I hoard extra pretty g3's and g4's for my kids that get to "see the collection and get a free pony from the pony lady" box.

 I would never give a child any vintage toy which was once, or becomes slimy to the touch or heavily weathered. (and sunfading, heat UV this all starts damage/breakdown) Sadly since lead and cadmuim ended up in our playthings anyway and the concern is as they break down they can be adsorbed through skin. you also don't want them getting old plasticizers all over their hands either. If you have concerns though the person to ask is your pediatrician, or a musuem conservator with knowledge of 80's plastic's.

Exceptions of course are older kids who want them as a collectible and not for play. They can't hurt you in a curio.

[fizzingmagic]

Hi sorry to pop in but I wanted to know how well pony cancer has been treated with peroxide soaks and if you do a soak would be ok to cover up cutie marks with electrical tape?

(im planning on soaking a friends Bowtie who has some faint cancer marks to see if it helps)

[margotfranklin]

I imagine a sun faded pony would be okay for a child to play with- would an oxy boil pony or peroxide-soaked pony be okay as well? I have a few ponies with unacceptable stains and I would like to try to get them out but I need them to be child-safe afterward.

Some of the pen stains, I have tried the method of heating the pony in hot water, applying antibacterial soap, and scraping. I have had little success in drastically lightening the pen stains but this takes a very long time and I am not sure if it is worth it for the purpose. Any thoughts?

Ok, personally I have stopped giving children vintage toys period I keep my stuff out of reach of both children and pets.(even those in seemingly good repair). I posted something a while back about a lab taking 80's stuff and finding lead and cadmium in the vinyl (yes, even in 80's MLP). it can be absorbed through skin.  So now I hoard extra pretty g3's and g4's for my kids that get to "see the collection and get a free pony from the pony lady" box.

 I would never give a child any vintage toy which was once, or becomes slimy to the touch or heavily weathered. (and sunfading, heat UV this all starts damage/breakdown) Sadly since lead and cadmuim ended up in our playthings anyway and the concern is as they break down they can be adsorbed through skin. you also don't want them getting old plasticizers all over their hands either. If you have concerns though the person to ask is your pediatrician, or a musuem conservator with knowledge of 80's plastic's.

Exceptions of course are older kids who want them as a collectible and not for play. They can't hurt you in a curio.

Ahh what a bummer. I had considered not giving my children mint condition (or even good condition) vintage toys to play with and was instead planning on giving them restored toys to play with (since they lose so much of their collectible value already) but I had not even considered your points- which are very good points for my husband and I to think about.

I don't think it makes much of a difference but I had been picking up hairless ponies, bent ponies, and stained ponies. Since fixing these issues compromises the collectible value but does not contribute to toxicity I thought these would be great hand-me-downs but it sounds like maybe not! Thank you for your input!