Differing opinions on definition problem with Jamiedey5 (arena) Jammiepie5 ebay

[Tak]

original thread :
Can anyone write down a clear definition of the terms used in selling. Specifically for the arena. A picky collector's opinion of great condition is a whole lot different than someone who's newer, has lower income, likes cleaning, or just has a lower standard. I apparently didn't describe a pair of ponies correctly to a buyer. I honestly did my best to make their flaws clear and didn't see some that she says are there. I'm refunding all she paid and she can dispose of the ponies as she wants or I can pay her to ship them back no problem. If she's not happy I'll do whatever in my power to make it right. Not sure if having a dispute on my PayPal effects my feedback ratings here or on eBay and it certainly wasn't necessary with me.
Please can someone help with a pinned list of condition definitions on the arena? I would hate to disappoint someone ever again. 

A brief overview of this whole thread which has now been modified and updated since the buyer has also now replied (more details if you read all of the posts) :
 The buyer jamiedey5 (Arena ID) jammiepie5 (ebay ID ) and Tak the seller had what seemed to be a difference of opinion on condition of some ponies. Jamiedey said that the ponies had more flaws than described and smelled mouldy and so she wanted a refund.  She opened a case before TAk could refund her, but then closed it when she saw that the seller Tak  had refunded her ( jamiedey5/jammiepie5) and then Tak let her keep the ponies too.  Jamie did not ask Tak to let her keep the ponies, that was Tak's decision.

 Tak asked for further advice here about describing conditions  as she was new to selling and didn't want to disappoint other buyers. She had in fact described  that they were not perfect, but opinions on conditions  do differ and Tak is still learning so mistakes can be made .
After that everything seemed to be resolved between buyer and seller and the buyer left the seller good feedback.
The original messages between the two can be seen in the thread

There was some question then as to whether Jamie then  went on to sell the ponies from Tak on ebay for a profit. A lot of members including Tak the seller would have assumed the same thing having seen those listings but Jamie has since clarified that they were not the same ponies. 

Having your name in the thread title in TS can be a shock sometimes but it is not uncommon and can help alert the other person to the thread to explain and work things out. It also alerts other members to any potential issues, whether that be differences of opinion on condition  or anything else, and shows usually both sides of the situation. If someone makes a TS thread about another member, and the other person involved in the transaction then wants to add their  point of view they are more than welcome of course because  then everyone can usually still talk through this situation and understand it better
Jamie has not been called a scammer in the thread title  I edited to include her name as other members asked for the name and it is not wrong to add the name to a thread - as stated above.

 ~ Ringlets TS Mod

[bluerose9978]

Clear and many pictures is the best way to describe ponies and at the same time pointing out any flaws that cannot be pictured like smell, if the pony rattles, if it has problems standing, and pointing out anything that can easily be missed in the photos. Also, let the buyer know if there has been any customization of any kind.

All sellers go about describing ponies differently. Just beware of calling any pony mint unless you absolutely are sure there are no flaws. Even some ponies on the card and in the box may have flaws and their cards may be flawed as well.

Just keep in mind that you can't please everyone all of the time but you can do your best to make sure your buyer is happy by offering a return and refund and you'll pay return shipping.

[Ponyfan]

Bluerose has some great tips. One thing you might try is looking at the pony in different kinds of light. Look at the pony inside your home and also outside. This might help you notice flaws that you wouldn't have noticed otherwise. Mint to me would mean no flaws at all whereas near mint would mean one or two minor things. Also some ponies bright hair colors can stain the pony under the mane so that is something to look for and mention also.


Ponyfan

[kitkatvintage]

Pictures are the most important thing. Collectors will always have a wide range of opinions on what "good condition" means. There's no way to really pin down the definition of "very good" vs "good" vs "fair. In the old days before everyone had such easy access to digital pictures, we used to write descriptions in great detail describing every imperfection, but now taking clear pictures in good lighting is a lot easier for both the buyer & seller.

[banditpony]

I know how stressful it can be when you have a buyer who is unsatisfied. I usually panic. I want everyone to be happy. I believe what makes a good seller is how they can handle a transaction that has a problem. You are offering to pay a full refund (and return shipping)! That's great.

I think both photos and a description are important. There are times where a camera (intentionally or not) won't pick up on subtle flaws.

I usually assume the worst when listing ponies. I don't think I believe in mint. o_o; I try to just cover everything I can think of in order. I look at the body for any specific marks (are they surface, can they come out with cleaning, are they deep in the plastic, do I even know if can ever come out?!). Paint for any rubs. Hair for dryness (ends, all of it), fading, cuts, rust... etc etc etc.

Once I forgot to check the feet for markings. u_u; whoops. It had been a pony in my collection for years, I never look at the feet. Now I do.

And at best just put "I'm a new collector, I might miss flaws, please contact me if there is any specific things you are looking for". That way they know it's possible you can miss a flaw.

[goddessofpeep]

I have found that having a sort of form to fill out helps me spot flaws a lot better, and gives much better descriptions.  I stay away from rating ponies or using specific terms to list the condition of the pony.  I also keep "the only surprises a buyer/trader should get are good ones" firmly in my mind.  I'd rather have a buyer pass up my pony than have an unhappy buyer, so I don't try to sell my ponies - I report on them.

In addition to  multiple clear photos from several angles, for each pony, I fill out this "form":

Body:
Hair:
Symbol:
Eyes:
Paint:
Other:

Body:  I list anything I see wrong with the body including plastic damage, dirt(surface and permanent), smooze, marks, scuffs, regrind, stains, general playwear, age spots, and head/body mismatches. I also give detailed information about the location of any flaws I find.

Hair: I list any hair issues including trims, cuts, frizz, fading, rough hair, tail rust, or damaged tinsel.

Symbol: I list any damage to the symbol including scuffs, scratches, fading, or missing/bleeding symbols.

Eyes: I list any damage to the eye including scuffs, scratches, and faded/damaged eyelashes.

Paint: I list any damage to the rest of the paint(blush, TAF style painted areas, etc) including scuffs, scratches, fading, or missing/bleeding paint.

Other: This is the catch all for anything else including weird smells, rattling, and those odd things you sometimes find with ponies that defy explanation. 

Having this kind of thing to fill out forces me to look at every part of the pony, and it cuts down on the follow up questions from people who are picky about one particular thing.  After I've filled out the form and taken the pictures, I will give a general summery about what I think of the pony.  "Displays nicely", "overall lovely", "not for the picky collector", "collection quality", etc...

I try to avoid using words like "mint" and  "excellent" because they're often overused by sellers who aren't very good at finding flaws.


An example of a filled out form would be like this(and of course I include clear pictures of everything mentioned, and the pony as a whole):

Body:  Small mark on left back foot.  Appears to be pen.  Less than a quarter inch, but probably permanent.  Pony has average playwear, but should display well for the non picky collector.
Hair: Uncut and smooth
Symbol:  Symbols intact except for a tiny scratch on the non display side.  Less than an 8th of an inch and very hard to see.
Eyes: No flaws I can see.
Paint: Blush is good and undamaged.
Other: No other issues I can see.

Overall a very nice pony for the non-mint collector.  Pony has some usual playwear and doesn't feel new, but the hair is very nice.  Pony has very few marks or damage, and is generally a lovely pony.

[Em_L._Pea_Customs]

I have found that having a sort of form to fill out helps me spot flaws a lot better, and gives much better descriptions.  I stay away from rating ponies or using specific terms to list the condition of the pony.  I also keep "the only surprises a buyer/trader should get are good ones" firmly in my mind.  I'd rather have a buyer pass up my pony than have an unhappy buyer, so I don't try to sell my ponies - I report on them.

In addition to  multiple clear photos from several angles, for each pony, I fill out this "form":

Body:
Hair:
Symbol:
Eyes:
Paint:
Other:

Body:  I list anything I see wrong with the body including plastic damage, dirt(surface and permanent), smooze, marks, scuffs, regrind, stains, general playwear, age spots, and head/body mismatches. I also give detailed information about the location of any flaws I find.

Hair: I list any hair issues including trims, cuts, frizz, fading, rough hair, tail rust, or damaged tinsel.

Symbol: I list any damage to the symbol including scuffs, scratches, fading, or missing/bleeding symbols.

Eyes: I list any damage to the eye including scuffs, scratches, and faded/damaged eyelashes.

Paint: I list any damage to the rest of the paint(blush, TAF style painted areas, etc) including scuffs, scratches, fading, or missing/bleeding paint.

Other: This is the catch all for anything else including weird smells, rattling, and those odd things you sometimes find with ponies that defy explanation. 

Having this kind of thing to fill out forces me to look at every part of the pony, and it cuts down on the follow up questions from people who are picky about one particular thing.  After I've filled out the form and taken the pictures, I will give a general summery about what I think of the pony.  "Displays nicely", "overall lovely", "not for the picky collector", "collection quality", etc...

I try to avoid using words like "mint" and  "excellent" because they're often overused by sellers who aren't very good at finding flaws.


An example of a filled out form would be like this(and of course I include clear pictures of everything mentioned, and the pony as a whole):

Body:  Small mark on left back foot.  Appears to be pen.  Less than a quarter inch, but probably permanent.  Pony has average playwear, but should display well for the non picky collector.
Hair: Uncut and smooth
Symbol:  Symbols intact except for a tiny scratch on the non display side.  Less than an 8th of an inch and very hard to see.
Eyes: No flaws I can see.
Paint: Blush is good and undamaged.
Other: No other issues I can see.

Overall a very nice pony for the non-mint collector.  Pony has some usual playwear and doesn't feel new, but the hair is very nice.  Pony has very few marks or damage, and is generally a lovely pony.

This is exactly what I always did as well as clear pics!

[Tak]

Thank you all!  this will help so much. I panicked a bit banditpony. I've been on the sour end as a buyer and never want to put anyone through that. Pictures are hard for me since all I have is a front facing camera on a tablet. I can always write more and I'm just trying to get ponies I don't have space for to people wanting ponies. The money really isn't important.  I already paid for them so I'm losing in my view.

[Snapdragon]

TBH, I worry that someone may be trying to take advantage of you, Tak; you mentioned that you are a newer collector in the past (and you've only been here, what, a month?), and sometimes less-than-savory figures will try to take advantage of someone's newness and scam them out of ponies by being rude/pushy. It's happened before that a "upstanding" member will pull borderline-scammy moves on new members, and no one notices for awhile because the newbies assume that it's their fault. :/

IMO, I would offer a refund IF the buyer offered to return the ponies; saying "keep the money and the ponies" is a pretty risky standard to set for a seller. (Plus, you don't deserve to lose the money AND the ponies! Paying return shipping would be a nice move on your part, or taking half of the cost out of the refund you give them would also be fair, from what I've seen, but other sellers may want to weigh in!)

IMO, I saw your sales thread, and I thought it was fairly standard; you set the prices and show the ponies so people can see the general quality. The prices, to me, seem petty standard and fair; nothing is wildly expensive, and we're not talking about hundred-dollar ponies here being mis-discribed. The photos could be better, sure, but if someone was REALLY concerned about the condition, I would think that they would PM you asking for a more detailed description. (Unless, of course, someone DID PM you for a description and you overlooked some bad marks, which can happen to all of us! Some of us are just pickier than others!) Usually, super-picky collectors will tell you so in a PM, so that you can go over the pony with a fine-tooth comb to make sure they'll be happy. (It's easier to do this in bright outside daylight, too; indoor lighting won't pick up all of the marks!)

Did the buyer already initiate a Paypal dispute without talking to you? That is also not a good sign, to me; Paypal gives you such a long window now (like 100 days or something?), I feel like you should always try to work things out personally with the seller before you escalate to that. :/

I've seen people make sales threads before that were standard "ponies are priced as shown, I don't have time to make detailed posts about every pony", and buyers accepted that they needed to eyeball the photos or move on if they were super picky. IDK, this is just my opinion, but I'm a little worried for you!

Also, everyone else has said this already, but there's no such thing as a 'universal standard' for pony quality, unfortunately! You just have to describe your sales ponies to the best of your ability, or do the classic 'take it or leave it' if you don't have the time! You'll lose the 'picky' buyers, but some folks won't mind.

[nhal039]

Hi have to be honest i had the same thoughs as snapdragon

[Juliepants]

And I did too. Your sales thread makes it very clear you're selling to make space, the ponies aren't perfect, and they're priced accordingly. Please don't let the buyer keep the ponies!!

Jules x

[brighteyes]

Hi have to be honest i had the same thoughs as snapdragon

This is my feeling as well.  I saw Tak's sales thread as well and thought the photos were pretty standard for a general sales thread, especially given that the ponies were very reasonably priced.  If I have a lot of ponies I'm wanting to sell, I like to group them up into categories.  So I'll have a photo of all the bait condition ponies (with two views, one from display side and one from nondisplay side) with a set price per pony (like 3$ with discounts for purchasing multiples or something) and say something like: "All of these ponies have major flaws that require major restoration.  These include but are not limited to: hair cuts, tail rust, major eye and symbol rubs, pony cancer, pindot, chew marks, regrind, marker and saddle sores.  Each pony pictured below has MULTIPLE of these issues.  These are not really suitable for display and instead would make great restoration or customization projects."  and then move up from there.  If I have mint or excellent condition ponies, ponies which have either no flaws or only one small flaw, I will list them in individual photos with a full rundown like goddessofpeep listed.  If people want additional info on any of the bulk described ponies, they are encouraged to request additional photos.   

I'm really concerned about the possibility of someone opening a paypal dispute without contacting you first though.  Is that what happened?  If so, that is just, incredibly not cool.  I also think it's very generous of you to allow for a full refund and the buyer to keep the ponies. 

I think we've definitely all had our fair share of selling and buying disappointments (as the many many threads on TS forum show!).  When I first started selling, when I was like 18 and eBay was young I had a terrible experience that put me off collecting for years.  Since then I haven't had too many issues though and I hope this will be the last problem for you as well.

[LadyMoondancer]

I'm really concerned about the possibility of someone opening a paypal dispute without contacting you first though.  Is that what happened?  If so, that is just, incredibly not cool.

I was thinking the same thing.  If someone opened a Paypal dispute without trying to work things out with you first, that's really rude of them.

[lunar_scythe]

I also want to point out if the buyer didn't ask for a description, that's on them.  I don't mean to put you down about it, but it's obvious the pics aren't the best, so if marks are an issue, buyers should ask you about them/any.  Generally speaking, if I see a pony listed for less than the 'normal' price, *even if it isn't said*, I would assume it has a few issues, whether they're visible in the pics or not.

We do have a few collectors who consider things flaws that you might not think about, such as loose heads or tails, but they usually ask about that in particular, I think.

The big thing for the future is remember to be extremely detailed when describing ponies in PM's, even if it isn't detailed on the sales thread.  That prevents any misunderstandings.

I also agree the buyer should return the ponies to you, and depending on if they asked about flaws and if the description was accurate, they should maybe pay for the return shipping.  I know you said it isn't about the cost, but in your situation, since you are a fairly new seller, it's more about establishing a policy for the future.

[Tak]

She did pm and I sent better pictures with as accurate a description as possible. Says they smelled moldy and she opened one to find mold. After pm ing me she went to open a dispute and I was already processing the refund. Didn't see the dispute until after. She's pretty new on here as far as trades and posts.
You all make good points and I'll definitely apply them in the future. You've given me lots to consider.