Netherlands Buyer Refused Shipment Due to Customs Charges

[Baby Mischief]

In Sweden....
We have to pay 25% of the amount in custom tax, not including shipping fees. If the package says "gift", you still have to pay 25% if the value is higher than around $63. And you have to pay a $16 handling fee. But all that is just if they actually check your package, most of the time they don´t.
All this is because in Sweden we have this tax called moms. We pay it on all all merchandise, food, everything. So when you purchase something from a country that does not have moms, like the US, you have to pay it when the item enters Sweden.
But I can´t understand the countries that takes out fees that are higher than the actual cost of the items..

LittleSpiffy, in your case the buyer is so wrong! Everyone that shops on Ebay knows that you risk custom charges, and everyone should also know that if you want the seller to change something about the shipping, you ask BEFORE you bid..!

[CupidStrikes]

What is actually the consequence of lying on the custom form and getting found out?
Has it ever happened?

I know a few people have had to take their invoices to the post office to double check, but this was in cases where the company had left the value blank. They just checked the invoice and had them pay the correct amount of import fees. Most places probably have far, far too many packages coming in for the regular post workers to query every package, especially as most people couldn't work out what was or wasn't undervalued, especially concerning things like ponies as the average person wouldn't think they were worth much!

I have heard that elsewhere in Europe, some postal workers just estimate what they think the item is worth if they think the value is wrong, and too bad for you if they overcharge because they'll wriggle their way out of refunding it, even if you can prove otherwise.

[Stormness_1]

I always put gift on mine, our forms are pretty dodgy though, with no real option for sales in small quantities... but I always put the correct approximate value. Sometimes if I remember to write it down it's exact, otherwise I just guesstimate right there at the PO counter! I've never had a package held up in customs, but I tend to sell pretty low-value stuff really, so maybe they don't care. I've never had a package arrive with anything but gift on it... but we don't have customs fees here anyway unless it's a really high-value commercial import item through a licensed importer, as far as I know.

[tulagirl]

What is actually the consequence of lying on the custom form and getting found out?
Has it ever happened?

There is a huge  fine and jail time if you lie on a customs form.  People do get caught.  I have mentioned several times on the Arena about what happened when I got a package from Germany in which the person lied on the form.  Why take the chance?  So what if there are lots of packages and maybe they won't catch yours.  What kind of thinking is that?  Its breaking the law. Its never okay to break the law.  Remember this is a federal offense.   A gift is only an item you send to someone you know.. that they didn't pay for.  An ebay sale is never a gift.

[lunar_scythe]

the only time I mark something as a gift is in a swap or trade, since no money is changing hands.

[LittleSpiffy]

What is actually the consequence of lying on the custom form and getting found out?
Has it ever happened?

There is a huge  fine and jail time if you lie on a customs form.  People do get caught.  I have mentioned several times on the Arena about what happened when I got a package from Germany in which the person lied on the form.  Why take the chance?  So what if there are lots of packages and maybe they won't catch yours.  What kind of thinking is that?  Its breaking the law. Its never okay to break the law.  Remember this is a federal offense.   A gift is only an item you send to someone you know.. that they didn't pay for.  An ebay sale is never a gift.

 

I like your style, tulagirl!

[Schitterboogje]

So, the item he bought was $35 and the custom fees were $40 ?  Wow that is a lot! But as a buyer you always have to keep in mind that maybe you have to pay for custom fees..  It s*cks to pay more money but I would feel so bad to send something back because of custom fees..
Also, I'm wondering how can custom fees be higher as the item that's bought?? I've never heard about that...

Shipping this back would probably take 1 to 2 months I guess..

[tulagirl]

the only time I mark something as a gift is in a swap or trade, since no money is changing hands.

That makes sense!  Swaps certainly are gifts for sure.

[hathorcat]

What is actually the consequence of lying on the custom form and getting found out?
Has it ever happened?

There is a huge  fine and jail time if you lie on a customs form.  People do get caught.  I have mentioned several times on the Arena about what happened when I got a package from Germany in which the person lied on the form.  Why take the chance?  So what if there are lots of packages and maybe they won't catch yours.  What kind of thinking is that?  Its breaking the law. Its never okay to break the law.  Remember this is a federal offense.   A gift is only an item you send to someone you know.. that they didn't pay for.  An ebay sale is never a gift.

It is classed as fraud and sure if you are importing containers of stock and avoiding the tax man you will get fined and can even get jail time. However we don't have a federal law system and the courts and prisons are too packed full with actual criminals in order to get prison for dodging a £10 import charge. Serious tax avoiders - i.e. Google and Starbucks - can find ways to skip the system it seems harsh that little hathorcat who is importing a $30 pony is going to jail for asking someone to ship as a gift.

I think sometimes people in countries which dont have as tight import restrictions realise quite the extent of this issue here in the UK [and certainly in other countries]. Every single package coming into the UK is stopped - if the declaration is higher than £18 you pay a handing charge of around £8 minimum plus a percentage of that value. For me, it is getting to the stage where I seriously have to consider making purchases from outside the EU. *shrug* as long as sellers dont mind that the high import charges put bidders and buyers off, then thats find. But I think in the long run everyone is going to lose out. In the US you are very very fortunate that you dont encounter this problem to the same extent as we do.

The purpose of import duty is so that the UK Government gets back the VAT/tax that they miss out on when the item being imported was purchased in another country. However 2 things: 1) I am purchasing the item on the Arena or via ebay, the seller is not charging me tax anyway; 2) I am purchasing second hand items and items which could not be purchased within the country I am from [perhaps never released here] but being charged tax on it? I would not actually quibble with a charge if I purchased a G4 item MIB which is on UK shelves but I am buying it in order to get it cheaper...then sure I would be liable.

I understand that its not something every one is comfortable with and no one should ship this way if they do not wish to. And shipping under value is something the buyer needs to accept responsibility for as it means any claims by the seller could never be for the full value. But I just think its worth remembering how expensive import duties make pony collecting for some people. Crying "not fair" is maybe a little childish...but to be honest on this occasion its justified.

So in the long run...is it illegal to put a different total than paid for the item on the customs receipt? Yup it is. Is it fair that hobbiest/collectors pay additional import duties for something which they dont intent to make any profit on? For me...no. I am not suggesting anyone avoid the fees or change the custom declaration. And I also think everyone must be aware of potential fees - they suck but you will be caught with them and you will have to pay them as a buyer they are your responsibility. However, as a long term collector if I added up what I have paid over the years in customs charges...I think I am funding the satellite tvs some of those actual criminals have in their jail cells.

edit for Cats spelling fail

[CupidStrikes]

Well said, Hathorcat One thing to note, though - the minimum amount for customs charging is now £15, not £18 Gifts over £36 are also taxable.

I think that if the mail companies weren't allowed to charge such offensively high handling fees (it's part of their dang job, why do they get to charge more for a service they're supposed to provide anyway!?) then no one (or certainly fewer people) would consider lying on the forms. I don't think I've ever paid an import charge where the VAT was more than the handling fee...

[Sebby6]

I really have to agree with Hathorcat. It really winds me up when people use words like federal offence about valuing a toy that could be purchased at Goodwill for $1
The majority of people on this board are from the US - I wonder what it would be like if the shoe was on the other foot.
I will not buy from a seller who insist on doing it.

[WingedElf]

I have to agree with Sebby and Hathorcat also, a pony is essentially worthless, it's a piece of plastic. I see a whole world of difference in marking a vintage G1 that cost $50, $10, and marking down a brand new iphone 5s which cost hundreds of dollars.

A lot of products are cheaper to buy from the US than they are in Europe (phones, laptops, designer clothes, perfume etc etc), that is what these customs laws are designed to prevent, people from Europe buying NEW products from other countries where they are cheaper and avoiding paying VAT/tax by not buying that product in their own country.

The purpose of import duty is so that the UK Government gets back the VAT/tax that they miss out on when the item being imported was purchased in another country. However 2 things: 1) I am purchasing the item on the Arena or via ebay, the seller is not charging me tax anyway; 2) I am purchasing second hand items and items which could not be purchased within the country I am from [perhaps never released here] but being charged tax on it? I would not actually quibble with a charge if I purchased a G4 item MIB which is on UK shelves but I am buying it in order to get it cheaper...then sure I would be liable.

^^ Could not agree with this more.

Do you guys think it's fair that we should get stuck with a ridiculously excessive tax for a vintage pony which we would not pay tax on when buying from within our own country? VAT etc would not apply if we brought the same pony for the same price from a seller in the UK. So how does it make sense that we have to pay it when buying the pony from a seller abroad? We are clearly not circumventing taxation as vintage items like these are not subject to these taxes within our own country.

I too find it frustrating when people look at everything so black and white, clearly there is a massive difference in asking for a new product, subject to VAT etc., with an intrinsic value to be undervalued on a custom form versus an old product, not subject to VAT etc., with no intrinsic value to be undervalued.

[lunar_scythe]

If a seller gets caught putting a lower value on a package, *they* are the one who'll get fined, unless I'm misunderstanding things.  The buyer would have to pay the import fees, but that would be the end of it on their end, right?  I've offered to divide up large lots so the value of each part is lower, but then shipping is more... 

I know it must be frustrating to have to pay such fees, but I just don't feel comfortable falsifying official paperwork, I guess I'm just a goody two shoes, haha, I didn't even get into trouble as a teenager!

[Vintergatan]

Well said Hathorcat and co.

I would also like to remind people that some of us have to pay tax when buying items from EVERY SINGLE COUNTRY, which means that if we go by strict law, I have to pay import tax unless I manage to buy a pony from 330 000 people that live in this country. This is pretty much the reason why I very rarely buy ponies unless I find them at the thrift store

Also, the customs rules here state that gifts under a certain value don't get taxed, but you can only receive gifts on special days (which are defined by the customs office!), and I've had them try to tax items clearly marked as gifts numerous times and hassle me and my family before they finally release them (I have never received anything worth more than $100 and most of the time we are talking items less than $50 in value). In fact, it happened a few times that they taxed my gift and when I went there to complain, they just handed me my package, tax-free without any comment. This says to me that they will try to tax people even when they know they have no right just to see if they can get away with it.

Customs also open ALL my packages, always, something that should be done only in the case of a suspicious package.
But I guess I'm a criminal if I ask someone to mark my $5 second hand pony a gift.

[NoDivision]

If a seller gets caught putting a lower value on a package, *they* are the one who'll get fined, unless I'm misunderstanding things.  The buyer would have to pay the import fees, but that would be the end of it on their end, right?  I've offered to divide up large lots so the value of each part is lower, but then shipping is more... 

I think it depends on the country. But from the reading I've done, it unfortunately tends to fall on the buyer, just because there's not really a way for the receiving country to follow up with the seller. If I send a package to Germany and it's found that I falsified information on the label, I don't think the German officials are going to go through the cost and effort of trying to seek action against me because doing that internationally is just WAY beyond a reasonable reach. Instead it would likely fall on the buyer, in the form of higher fees to get their package. At least that's what I've gathered from the little bit of reading I've done. So in most cases if you lie on a customs form and its caught it's just going to hurt your buyer more :\ (I suppose it's possible the USPS could catch it on the way out if they feel like something is suspicious, but I think that's pretty rare.)

I'm happy to help my fellow pony people when I can. Genuine gifts, swaps, etc I will mark as a gift. Usually most handmade items, too. I try to find out what the "limits" are in the country I'm sending to and will slightly mark down values if it's something that's flexible. E.g. the actual amount spent on a swap box was $35 but the limit for a package to be considered a gift works out to like $30, I'll knock off a few dollars on value and if the worst case scenario happens then I can't claim the value of a couple of packs of sweets. The same goes for if I sell a pony through the arena to someone I know well or is a strong community member with good feedback - I'm not going to drastically undervalue a package, but if I sell a pony for $17 and the import charges jump drastically for items over $15, if I'm aware of it I will do a small markdown like that.

But when it comes to things sold through ebay I won't do it. Given ebay/paypal's tendency to almost always side with buyers, as a seller I'm not going to give up any of my limited protection. So sadly that means higher costs for my international buyers, including more expensive shipping services and full disclosure on customs forms. But, all of that is clearly stated up front and buyers know going into the transaction that they are responsible for those fees and based on that they can choose whether or not they want to bid. So it is completely unreasonable for a buyer to lodge a complaint or refuse shipment after the fact.